Soy is nasty and vegetarians are probably insane.

and there kevin you hit the nail on the head. we should live our life free to make our own decisions....if it costs us a few years or more so be it.

I would rather die 10 years to soon happy then to live 5 extra years healthy and miserable..

Coronary artery disease is better than a meat free life. I will die with a bloody beast on my fork.

and there kevin you hit the nail on the head. we should live our life free to make our own decisions....if it costs us a few years or more so be it.

I would rather die 10 years to soon happy then to live 5 extra years healthy and miserable..

Thank you two SO MUCH for being so honest. You just proved my point I made in another article. People only eat meat because it tastes good; NOT because it's healthy for us.

Meat actually is very healthy for us to eat. As long as it is meat from humanly raised animals that have been allowed to eat a diet natural to them, and not force-fed corn. But for it to be truly healthy, you would have to eat the organ meats as well.

The question is, what can we do about it? I no longer buy mass-produced meat and try to support local ranchers and growers for organic meat and fresh produce. When I have to buy meat and eggs in the chain grocery stores, I buy only cage-free, organic, or cage-free meat. The mass-production of the meat industry is disgusting. Here are a couple links that will hopefully provide some useful info to someone passing by Vlad's very cool (pun intended) pictures. I am not affiliated with them in anyway.

If I may, following are two very good resources for finding organic, pasture-raised, grass-fed, meats, produce, and other food items. I think it's important that we, collectively, start supporting our small and local farmers and ranchers who strive diligently to give us a better quality product than what we can find in chain grocery stores. The mass production of the meat industry is thoroughly digusting! See the movie, Food, Inc., for a jolting, eye opening insight.

Find locally grown, pastured, grass-fed, organic meat and food: Eatwild.com

Find local growers, farmers markets, family & organic farms, grass-fed meats, health food stores, etc.: Local Harvest

I copied 'n pasted my comment above from another comment posted yesterday. I should have read and edited it more thoroughly. My bad, my apologies! Two guesses as to where I copied it from ... lol!

... to someone passing by Vlad's very cool (pun intended) pictures. I am not affiliated with them in anyway.

Acapulco Kevin wrote:

Coronary artery disease is better than a meat free life. I will die with a bloody beast on my fork.

james-1416766 wrote:

I would rather die 10 years to soon happy then to live 5 extra years healthy and miserable..

I take it neither of you has ever had a severe gout attack. Believe me, it's enough to make you give the death option some serious thought.

Now, I'm certainly no vegetarian, but, that attack a few years ago and the long, often painful recovery, were enough motivation to cut way, way back on meat (and, to be fair, other gout-unfriendly foods) and to cut some out altogether.

Thanks for the eatwild link, Kori. I live in an agricultural valley in Orange county, NY, and I found a whole bunch of farms in my area - 3 right in my town (one only 3 miles away) - that raise and sell grass-fed natural livestock.

dennis

gout is caused by uric acid...for one bacon isnt high in uric acid.

james - no, but it is moderately high in purines. Purines are converted to uric acid.

james-1416766 wrote:

gout is caused by uric acid...for one bacon isnt high in uric acid.

The gating factor for a food's gout-friendliness or unfriendliness is purine content, which the body converts to uric acid. Bacon has a moderately high purine content.

Please understand, I adore meat. There's nothing quite like a big bloody piece of grilled tenderloin. But, as I said, if you've had a severe gout attack, you'll take *every* precaution to avoid another.

dennis what about organic bacon that is nitrite and nitrate free?

No, even the organic bacon contains high purine levels.

Thanks Dennis i had an uncle who suffered from gout and eventually died from it. Take care.

superiority complex

I'm a vegetarian, but that's not why I think I'm superior.

I'm a vegetarian, but that's not why I think I'm superior.

I'm guessing you think YOUR carrot is bigger than ours, huh?

I'm guessing you think YOUR carrot is bigger than ours, huh?

Who is this "ours" you're speaking of?

I have always thought that if the end of the world ever happens the vegetarians will be the first people to put other people in a pot of boiling water, they are insane.

Nope, an "All vegetarian diet" makes sense- vegetarians are corn-fed, very healthy and, I hear, quite tasty!

The main benefit is they are often organic and low in fat, but I hear that taste varies from person to person..

Oh, is she ever, Kevin!

You know, Aaron, I look at it this way. We're all gonna croak one of these days. If I had to live without BBQ pulled pork, I'd die that much sooner from the agony of NOT having it.

Fortunately, I love veggies, so do my kiddos. But bring on the charred meat!!!

Both these things lead to Death

Bad news: life itself is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.

You're welcome. See, I think whole milk is nasty. Actually - I think milk in general is nasty. It smells horrible and makes me want to gag.

Everyone has to make their decisions regarding their diet. I don't consume animal products - but, my diet isn't necessarily the right diet for the next person. Be healthy, eat the food you like - it's certainly not my place to tell anyone else what to eat.

Soy nuts are sooo good. I like peanuts - but, since my youngest son is allergic to peanuts and treenuts, I don't keep any nuts in the house (other than peanut butter for my oldest son - but, that's pretty easy to keep isolated from everything else).

:)

As a ... 'part time' vegetarian I can kind of see where you are coming from but some stuff isn't so bad. My gf is vegetarian, has been since she was 11 years old. Out of respect for her I don't eat meat at home, but I have also worked some jobs like cable technician where there simply isn't a vegetarian spot to eat in 15 miles. I like whole milk, I also like eggs, I find I don't really miss chicken that much but a good elk roast is what I miss most.

Morningstar makes some good stuff, I like their vegetarian sausage patties, they taste pretty similar to real sausage but are not made from left over meat parts. They also make probably the best vegetarian burger I'd found, not bad by any means. Definitely not as tasty as a really good hamburger, but similar tasting to an average one.

Morningstar stuff IS good!

Is levity a precious commodity tonight?

Is levity a precious commodity tonight?

I don't know, maybe it's not as funny when you're sitting on the opposite side of the table.

I am all for levity; I was striving for some levity with my earlier post. This seed strikes me as nothing but passive/aggressive and that is why I tossed the BS flag on it. Kind of reminds me of an old roommate, so I'll throw in narcissistic as well. Cheers!

but is seems the loud-mouths who thump their chest and pontificate about the virtues of a bloody steak and the insanity of vegetarianism are the same ones who drive domestic pickup trucks with oversized tires and duel Flowmasters while tossing crushed empty Bud Light cans out the window.

I'm very much the opposite of that but I cannot give up meat. But I guess I don't thump my chest and pontificate about it. My co-workers and I went for dimsum the other day and it was more a social thing than anything else. But there were 3 vegetarians in our group and very little on the menu they could go for. They didn't look too terribly happy. I actually felt sorry for them in that instance.

I suppose eating less meat would be a worthy goal but I couldn't exclude it altogether.

I don't get it, whats wrong with throwing crushed cans of bud lite out the window, huh?

I don't get it, whats wrong with throwing crushed cans of bud lite out the window, huh?

Silly, dont you know anything? You're suposed to use glass bottles and try to hit all the road signs!

Of course, I don't give a flying @!$%# if the cows turn around and eat you, either.

Now, THAT'S funny, even from the other side of the table.

Carnivorous cows? Man, you live in a tough zip code.

Well, it's Texas. They cows even own guns, here.

That's why we don't have zombies.

Well. Rent "Dead Meat", with the Irish zombie cows, or "Isolation", and pray it doesn't spread here...

That's why we don't have zombies.

Really? From looking at the quality of the people you send to Congress, I figured you didn't have zombies because they'd starve to death. Not enough brains to sustain the ecology.

And yet the longest living population is Japan...and they regularly eat tofu and miso. I don't understand.

I think it is just the processed soy that is not good for you. The real organic soy is OK. In fact, soybeans are the only known vegetable that contains all of the essential amino acids that our bodies require. Soybeans are rich in fiber and polyunsaturated fat.

wood, I think Lisafrequency is referring to the fact that soy contains phytoestrogens (plant estrogen). What's funny is that they are actually shown to help to prevent certain cancers - including prostate cancer, breast, bowel, and several other cancers - they are also beneficial in helping prevent some cardiovascular disease and help maintain brain function. In men with fast food diets, they are shown to increase isoflavinoid consumption. There is some evidence that, in men, the combination of phytoestrogens and increased consumption of isoflavinoids can lead to slightly decreased fertiltiy. In theory, exposure to high levels of phytoestrogents can alter their hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis - but, studies have actually shown the effect to be minor (there has been no effect on sperm count, mobility or concentration, there has been no effect on testicular or ejaculate). There has been some other connections between very high levels of phyoestrogens and isoflavins having other femization effects. The amount of phytoestrogens and isoflavin consumed in a typical vegetarian diet does not cause any feminizing effects because it is at a moderate level, not at a high level.

In the Western diet, most phytoestrogens actually come from nuts and oils, followed by soy products, cereals, breads, legumes, meat (because most of our meat is from plant-fed animals), processed foods that contain soy, fruits, veggies and non-alcoholic beverages. Individually, flax seed oil, soy beans and tofu have the highest amounts of phyoestrogen. Basically, according to scientific studies - moderation would be the key.

In fact, soybeans are the only known vegetable that contains all of the essential amino acids that our bodies require.

This is untrue. I am sure that big agra and big pharma are working together to make the other plant sources that have complete essential amino acid profiles turn into frankenfoods before they let the public know about these other sources. The people that are ready know about them don't need to be told and the ones that don't know either would probably not eat them so no need to mention them here. They will know about it when big agra and pharma are done "changing" them though.

It also was the source of my constant constipation.

I know quite a few Viners who currently seem to suffer from that problem. I'll pass along your tip in the hope it helps.

Not sure it'll work for constipation of the brain though...

I love seafood.

Me, too! Any kind. Any time. Yum!

I love seafood too, I see food and I eat it...a great new diet.

but plain old tofu in a container reminds me of snot....

Wow you have some pretty solid snot interesting....

Why, thank you! You're too kind! But actually, I said "reminds me of." I wasn't drawing a hard and fast comparison, but speaking rather metaphorically, as opposed to literally.

Sunrises, for example, remind me of riding my horse, but I don't think reading that statement would lead anyone to think that I thought my horse was a gigantic ball of hot gasses, seemingly rising slowly above the horizon.

Also, you're assuming that I'm refering to my own snot. Maybe I deal with snot in other settings. It happens. Pediatricians...Nurses...Pulmonologists...Allergists...Internists... Respiratory techs. They deal with snot all the time....Hmm, I wonder if it reminds them of tofu.

Pediatricians...Nurses...Pulmonologists...Allergists...Internists... Respiratory techs. They deal with snot all the time....Hmm, I wonder if it reminds them of tofu.

Is THAT what I pulled outta that kid's nose today?!

:-D

Sydney - 5 wrote:

Pediatricians...Nurses...Pulmonologists...Allergists...Internists... Respiratory techs. They deal with snot all the time....

Don't forget parents.

Those of us who've raised kids have dealt with all sorts of assorted bodily excretions. :)

@ Dennis,

Those of us who've raised kids have dealt with all sorts of assorted bodily excretions. :)

lol. How could I overlook parents? We're the sultans of snot. :)

@Kevin,

I'm so glad my snot digression didn't offend you! I've been wanting to say that about tofu for years. Thank you! I feel so much better now. :)

This has been a fun thread. I think everyone has enjoyed it.

Mmm. Tastes like chicken. :)

I wish people would stop thinking of bodily fluids as nasty. Snot is cool I am not opposed to it at all "mucus is your friend" is what one of my professors used to say. My mucus runs mostly clear and has never looked like or had the consistancy of tofu. I do like to look at it under the microscope if I have it leaking out of me though.

Mucus is my friend when it's MY mucus in my own body. I don't want anybody else's curdy, pasty tofu looking snot anywhere near me!

It's one of those things, either you like it or you don't. If you don't, no need to drink it. But you might have better luck with rice, almond, hemp, or ancient grain milk. Also, in case you haven't already, you might try different brands of soy - not all are created equal.

yea I heard the almond milk is good....ancient grain milk????? where do you get that or hemp milk???? never seen that before.

Well, I live in Austin - we have stuff here that might not be readily available in places with a lower hippie-count. I see soy and rice milk everywhere. Almond lots of places. Hemp and ancient grain usually more at places like Whole Foods or wherever. Ancient grain is really just a blend of milks, like millet. I try to mix up my milks and buy a different sort each time I shop, but rice is a mainstay. I like soymilk, but it doesn't seem to keep as well. Of course, you can always make your own milk, it's pretty easy, although not as convenient as just buying a carton, of course.

well I will have to try the hemp and ancient grain milks.

thanks...I am not a vegetarian but am open to stuff. I dont believe in not eating meat...its just that in our wasteful society we eat about 4 times too much of it....which of course leads to other problems because of lack of technology.

peace.

I use rice milk for my daily protein shakes. I use half soy-based, and half veg based. Almost tastes like a vanilla milk shake. Almost, but not quite.

An ex coworker of mine is a vegetarian and eats pasta or bread every day. She has a figure to die for and boundless energy. She eats soy products and has no health problems. I am a total carnivore but I don't discourage anyone from going vegetarian if they feel it is best for them, but should only do so after speaking to their doctor or a nutritionist who specializes in the field.

Bad Fish, I rarely eat pasta or bread. I don't eat processed foods for the most part. Yet, I also don't consume animal products. In fact, where I go to school, quite a few vegetarians - and none of them regularly consume pasta and breads. Occasional consumption of pasta and breads, absolutely. I have lots of friends that are omnivores that eat a lot more processed foods than I do.

As far as soy promoting estrogen - that's not entirely correct. Soy contains phytoestrogen - a plant estrogen. Phytoestrogens can act agonistic or antagonist to natural estrogen. In moderate doses, phytoestrogen has shown to be beneficial in reducing the risks of prostate, breast and bowl cancer, in addition to helping maintain cardiovascular health and brain function. Now, it has been shown in increase isoflavinoid consumption in men that have a fast food diet. The phytoestrogen and isoflavinoids at high levels does appear to mildly decrease fertility in men. In theory, phytoestrogen can alter the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis, but in reality, the effects have been shown to be minor (it doesn't really have an appreciable affect at all). The average vegetarian diet does NOT contain enough phytoestrogens to increase risks of feminization. Soy is a good source of protein - it is actually considered a complete protein because it contains all of the essential amino acids. Essentially - moderation is key.

Now, if you're going to be concerned about the phytoestrogen found in soy, then you should probably be aware in the Western diet, most phytoestrogens actually come from nuts and oils, followed by soy products, cereals, breads, legumes, meat (because most of our meat is from plant-fed animals), processed foods that contain soy, fruits, veggies and non-alcoholic beverages.

That said - if you want to eat meat - go for it, I won't stop you :)

My current diet consists of 180 grams of protein a day right now. I feel better than i ever have eliminating anything that must be processed or refined.

No one wants to discredit vegetarians.

Well, your title, even if humorous, sort of suggest otherwise...

Well, your title, even if humorous, sort of suggest otherwise...

I know a lot of crazy vegetarians. Most are driven mad about what is being done to our foods. Many vegetarians are so because of what has been being done to meat for decades. Now they are doing it to the vegetables it is maddening. Say No 2 GMO soy!

lisa i only buy non gmo soy and i try as hard as i can to not buy gmo crap.

Moonlight-

People have different body/food needs.

So true, I just look at a carb filled item and gain 5lbs...protien and green stuff is what my body needs...unless I want to swell to the size of a house. I don't, so I pass on those yummy carbs.

moonlight, Lactate and lactose are NOT the same thing - nor do they come from the same source. They are processed entirely differently by your body. In fact, your body is producing lactate right this minute.

Lactose, as you point out, is from diary. It is glucose and galactose joined by a beta 1-4 glycosidic bond. Lactase, part of an enzyme complex in humans, is required to break this bond. Many people - in fact, most of the world's population of adults - don't produce enough lactase (some don't produce any at all).

Lactate, on the other hand, is lactic acid that has had an ion removed - this is very common when lactic acid is in solution, so lactic acid and lactate are often used interchangeably. Lactate is generated by red blood cells and any cell operating anaerobically (skeletal muscle does this sometimes). Lactate can be generated from glucose, sucrose or fructose. Essentially, these sugars are converted to pyruvate, which can be converted to acetyl CoA and enter the citric acid cycle OR, in certain cell types (like RBC's) and under anaerobic conditions, pyruvate is converted to lactate. Lactate is shuttled back to the liver. In the liver it enters gluconeogenesis - and is converted to glucose. Essentially, it is recycled. Lactase is not used in any of the steps of lactate metabolism.

You mention these meat producs: ham, pepperoni, and hot dogs - all of them have nitrates and nitrites in them. Obviously, you are sensitive to something in these - and I'm sorry for you it is never fun to have food sensitivities or allergies (my family has a lot of true food allergies, so I feel your pain). The only reason I wanted to mention the difference between lactate and lactose to you is so you don't limit something simply because it has lactate in it . My guess is it's one or more than one of the preservatives in those meat products or maybe the nitrites/nitrates. Potassium lactate is a preservative - it could be the potassium lactate - but, again, that's different that lactose or even lactate.

Best of luck to you.

Carbs are the enemy...carb free is the way I eat (not meaning complex carbs), sugar and white flour are deadly.

Carbs are only the enemy of sedentary lifestyles. If you are active, you burn them off.