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ACAPULCO KEVIN

"Those willing to give up freedom for security deserve neither and will lose both."
Articles Posted: 62  Links Seeded: 112
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Affirmative Action or Reverse Discrimination you decide

Thu Dec 2, 2010 11:22 AM EST
politics, race, sexuality, gender, minorities, racial-profiling, majorities, affirmitive-action
By Acapulco Kevin
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American economist, social and political commentator, Dr. Thomas Sowell identified some negative results of race-based affirmative action in his book, Affirmative Action Around the World: An Empirical Study. Sowell writes that affirmative action policies encourage non-preferred groups to designate themselves as members of preferred groups (i.e., primary beneficiaries of affirmative action) to take advantage of group preference policies; that they tend to benefit primarily the most fortunate among the preferred group (e.g., upper and middle class blacks), often to the detriment of the least fortunate among the non-preferred groups (e.g., poor whites or Asians); that they reduce the incentives of both the preferred and non-preferred to perform at their best. Instead of hiring the most qualified, jobs often go to a minority to fill a quota for the sake of minority diversity.

In my opinion affirmative action is "reverse discrimination". Affirmative action has undesirable side-effects in addition to failing to achieve its goals. It hinders reconciliation, replaces old wrongs with new wrongs, undermines the achievements of minorities, and encourages individuals to identify themselves as disadvantaged, even if they are not. It increases racial tension and racial profiling. I also believe it benefits the more privileged people within minority groups at the expense of the least fortunate within majority groups (such as lower-class whites).

Affirmative Action was born of the civil rights movement three decades ago, it calls for minorities and women to be given special consideration in employment, education and contracting decisions.

Institutions with affirmative action policies generally set goals and timetables for increased diversity and use recruitment, set-asides and racial preference as ways of achieving those goals.

In its modern form, affirmative action can cause an admissions officer faced with two similarly qualified applicants to choose the minority over the white, or for a manager to recruit and hire a qualified woman for a job instead of a man. Affirmative Action decisions are generally not supposed to be based on quotas, nor are they supposed to give any preference to unqualified candidates. However that is often not the case. Affirmative Action laws are not supposed to harm anyone through "reverse discrimination" however this is exactly what it achieves 30 years later.

When are minorities going to quit playing the "Al Sharpton race card?" When do minorities that are quickly becoming the majority quit getting special consideration based on ethnicity or sexual gender? The year is 2010, do we really need Affirmative Action or has it become Reverse Discrimination?

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Jump to discussion page: 1 2
Acapulco Kevin

I believe Affirmative Action laws have outlived their intended purpose and are now having a negative impact on society and inspire both Racial and Gender profiling instead of offering a position to a more qualified applicant. Long gone are the days of segregation and racial inequality. Every social service that is available to white people is available to minority groups yet under law we are still required to give preference to minorities over whites.

This hardly seems fair at this time in America.

  • 14 votes
#1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 11:30 AM EST
Bajee

My views on the topic are kind of mixed. While I understand that there is a need for corrective action, I believe that affirmative action is a very lazy way of going about it. There is a term that police used called "juking the stats". Basically what happens is the city decides that crime must go down by x%. Instead of going out and actually working hard to reduce crime, the police will take reports and downgrade the severity of them, or make them disappear completely. So in the end, on a piece of paper given to the mayor, crime has gone down, but in reality it hasn't. I think that there is a similar analogy going on with affirmative action. Instead of addressing the root causes of racism and discrimination, which would be very very difficult, the government has implemented a program that just inflates statistics.

Even with this in mind, I do not think that it should be repealed, at least yet. Granted what the government should have been doing in the first place was to implement AA, and then do more work on the root causes while slowly loosening the laws on AA to the point where it was no longer necessary. Regardless, the fact that it gives poor minorities a higher chance of going to college and getting a good job is all in all a good thing. If you are a white kid from the suburbs (such as me), and the biggest example of discrimination you have experienced in your life is some poor minority from the ghetto getting accepted to your choice college instead of you, you still have things pretty good.

  • 2 votes
#1.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 12:41 PM EST
CCArm

This hardly seems fair at this time in America.

and what is "this time" in America Kevin? Is it a time when white feel discriminated against because we have a black POTUS? There were some rumblings against AA before the election of Obama, but the cries have increased dramatically since Jan 20th 2009.

What America has to face is discrimination is still alive and kicking and it's color is still white.

  • 3 votes
#1.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 12:45 PM EST
Marshall James

you dont fight racism with racism.

it was and never will be a good idea.

it is legalized racism and should end immediately and should have never existed to begin with.

  • 14 votes
#1.3 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:05 PM EST
Acapulco Kevin

@james-1416766

I agree. I also disagree. I think it was a good idea 30 years ago. I think it has outlived it's intended purpose. If minorities with the very same opportunities as their white counterparts cannot move forward in 30 years then they are their own problem.

70% of prisoners in the United States are non-whites and a vast majority are for drug and violent offenses.

So it seems that many minorities have chosen drugs and illegal activities over finding legal employment even though discriminatory laws are clearly in their favor.

  • 11 votes
#1.4 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:19 PM EST
Marshall James

it was never a good idea. forcing morality upon the masses by government never works. we in all likelihood would be further along in race relations right now if the government never would of done this.

peace.

the drug war and the racism that is involved in that is also government driven.

welfare, minimum wage...all things made to keep the poor poor.....in this case many minorities.

it leads to the victim mentality.

have you read walter williams or thomas sowell?? they go into this kind of thing quite a bit.

  • 6 votes
#1.5 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:21 PM EST
Plantsmantx

In my opinion affirmative action is "reverse discrimination". Affirmative action has undesirable side-effects in addition to failing to achieve its goals. It hinders reconciliation, replaces old wrongs with new wrongs, undermines the achievements of minorities, and encourages individuals to identify themselves as disadvantaged, even if they are not. It increases racial tension and racial profiling.

In other words, "it" (to the extent it actually exists, or the extent you think it exists) makes people like you mad. I mean, what are you really saying here?

undermines the achievements of minorities

How so? A given "minority" person has either achieved something, or they haven't. It makes no sense to look at someone who has obviously achieved something and say "Well, because of affirmative action, he/she didn't really achieve that". That's irrational. What you're really saying is "Affirmative action will give some people an excuse to dismiss the competency of "minority" people, even if they are obviously competent". Well, you know, people who are inclined to want to do that will find excuses to do it, regardless.

It hinders reconciliation

How?

Echoing proglib's comment below, "affirmative action", at least in the way it's defined in this seed, barely exists, if it exists at all. It's really a red herring. But, as I've said more than once...assuming for the sake of argument that it actually exists, go ahead and abolish it. Black people will barely notice.

  • 7 votes
#1.6 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:23 PM EST
Tchem

...when white feel discriminated against because we have a black POTUS?

The white vote is what got Obama elected. There is simply not enough blacks to do that on their own.

  • 9 votes
#1.7 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:23 PM EST
Freedom Writer-801740

The white vote is what got Obama elected. There is simply not enough blacks to do that on their own.

Tchem try not to derail the post by using facts. (sarc) The bottom line here is in a society where we have a Black POTUS, affirmative action should be seen as an insult to minorities instead of the entitlement they all seem to think they deserve.

  • 10 votes
#1.8 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:58 PM EST
Tchem

You are correct Freedom. You think the lack of improvement with minorities could have something to do with the fact that the majority (>50%) of young black males are not graduating high school?...or that 3 out of 4 black children are born out of wedlock? Uneducated babies having babies is not a cultural behavior that is conducive to the flourishing of any society, yet it is rewarded by the gov't at the taxpayers' expense. If a group wants more respect, why not man-up and earn it as a group... because as of now the statistics show otherwise.

If a black POTUS can't handle the same criticisms that the white POTUS received when they were in office...that is NOT racism.

  • 11 votes
#1.9 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:35 PM EST
Freedom Writer-801740

Uneducated babies having babies is not a cultural behavior that is conducive to the flourishing of any society, yet it is rewarded by the gov't at the taxpayers' expense

And whats worse than that, feel that they deserve to be supported off the hard work of others for making their own bad decisions.

  • 11 votes
#1.10 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:45 PM EST
Acapulco Kevin

HUD always gives preferential treatment to minorities as outlined by Affirmative Action. That is why minorities are always the greatest percentage of residents in public housing.

With that thought in mind you are less likely as a white person to receive social services even though you have been paying the taxes to house the minorities.

  • 5 votes
#1.11 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:51 PM EST
CCArm

With that thought in mind you are less likely as a white person to receive social services even though you have been paying the taxes to house the minorities.

Well, I didn't think one could top #1.9 & #1.10

sorry you three, you all lose. Keep up the false facts, they make you look like, um, white people

39% white 11,661,000 of 29,900,000 recipients

38% black 11,362,000 of 29,900,000

17% Hispanic 5,083,000 of 29,900,000

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_race_percentage_for_welfare_recipients#ixzz16zNCd6mS

  • 4 votes
#1.12 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:40 PM EST
Neish1920

Race be damned, the drop out rate is higher for boys than girls. Look @ it from that angle and then bring up the topic again.

Yeah, blacks are more likely to have babies out of wedlock. White marry more and the divorce rate is 50%. A never married woman with kids is just as single as a divorced woman with kids.

Whites and blacks use welfare in the same percentages. So those numbers dont nessarily say who is more likely to receive it but who is more likely to ask for it. You realize that men are eligible for welfare as well, but are not as likely to utilize the resouce .....

And what tangible numbers are their to support the claim that one "culture" feels they deserve welfare "more" than another?

  • 4 votes
#1.13 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:54 PM EST
Freedom Writer-801740

CCArm while your statistics listed are probably accurate you also ahve to figure how many of each race there are. In the united states there are approx 229.8 million white people and 38.1 million black people. So if you look at those statistically black people get more than their fair share.

  • 8 votes
#1.14 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:09 PM EST
ms-984397

Thank you Freedom, I was hoping someone would point that out. Just because its obvious doesn't mean its acknowledged.

  • 5 votes
#1.15 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:21 PM EST
Neish1920

@ Freedom,

those stats do not show that white people are less likely to receive help if they ask. It really shows who requests the help more is all....

Adding to that...look @ it this way. There are more women in the teaching profession than men. (at the elementary and secondary levels). This does not mean that female teachers are favored over male teachers. It means that females are more likely to major in education and get a job in the field.

  • 1 vote
#1.16 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:29 PM EST
Tchem

And what tangible numbers are their to support the claim that one "culture" feels they deserve welfare "more" than another?

The entitlement 'culture' (regardless of race) absolutely feels they deserve more. Statistics show how this breaks down with race. Culture is not limited to just one race.

A never married woman with kids is just as single as a divorced woman with kids.

The difference is that the single mom with a kid out of wedlock immediately qualifies for aid that others could not get. Gov't check is much more dependable than a dead-beat sperm donor's.

You want tangible evidence...Young black males (as a group) have the highest incarceration rate, the highest H.S. dropout rate, the highest unemployment rate, and the highest rate of never married men. Trust me, I wish these stats were not true. So how do these men, I mean males, survive??... what responsible member(s) of society is supporting them and their irresponsible behaviors?

  • 5 votes
#1.17 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:36 PM EST
Neish1920

The difference is that the single mom with a kid out of wedlock immediately qualifies for aid that others could not get. Gov't check is much more dependable than a dead-beat sperm donor's.

I had a baby out of wedlock @ age 25. I was making $45k a year @ the time. I did would not have qualified for benefits.

You want tangible evidence...Young black males (as a group) have the highest incarceration rate, the highest H.S. dropout rate, the highest unemployment rate, and the highest rate of never married men. Trust me, I wish these stats were not true. So how do these men, I mean males, survive??... what responsible member(s) of society is supporting them and their irresponsible behaviors?

Well for one, they get arrested more as well. That evidence is tangible too. They do have the highest drop out rate, that is true, but its also true for males in general. Figure out why boys tend to drop out period and you will get the numbers down for all who are affected. (i personally think more male teachers would help across the board, but most men dont want to be teachers because their isnt enough money involved). Yeah, they are the highest rate of never married men, but that doesnt mean that they dont take care of their kids, or handle other business. There are plenty of black men who survive just as functioning members of society...more of them than not.

Let me add that most of the people in jail (race aside) are in there for simple possession. With the amount of drugs coming in this country and the money made off of them, you cant tell me that black men consume more than white men. Its all about who gets caught more. Not necessarily who uses more. black folks only make up 12% of the population. MUCH more than that consume illegal substances.....

  • 6 votes
#1.18 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:53 PM EST
Tchem

I had a baby out of wedlock @ age 25. I was making $45k a year @ the time. I did would not have qualified for benefits.

Unfortunately Neish, you are an exception to the rule. If one chooses to have a baby out of wedlock on their own dime, that is much different than expecting the taxpayer to foot the bill. One of the most irresponsible acts one can commit on society is to not be able to support their own self, but yet choose to bring kids into their life and let the taxpayer foot the bill. There are no license requirements to be a parent, but being able to at least support one's own self would be a great start...emphasis on education would at least give the kids a chance.

You are right about the possession charges, but those incarceration rates hold for all those uneducated, unemployed, irresponsible males (black & white) that put themselves in an environment that only fosters arrests.

  • 4 votes
#1.19 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:17 PM EST
Neish1920

@ Tchem

What is more exceptional is that I was making $45k A year @ that age. They aint handing out welfare checks all willy nilly now like they used to, and they are called TANF now. The increase in section 8 housing came from the housing boom and flipping houses. Why rent out a 3 bedroom house for $750 a month (Kansas City COL), when you can lease it to section 8 for $900 a month? A 4 bedroom house will bring you $1200 via section 8 vs the average consumer price of $900....

  • 5 votes
#1.20 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:25 PM EST
Neish1920

You are right about the possession charges, but those incarceration rates hold for all those uneducated, unemployed, irresponsible males (black & white) that put themselves in an environment that only fosters arrests.

This is true. But even after they have done their time, those instances are still held against them in employment and higher education (you cant get a loan for school with a drug charge). I dont know about you but I would rather them be able to get a job that sustains them or be able to go back to school and get a degree so they and their potential children and wives/baby mothers dont become system lifers.

  • 3 votes
#1.21 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:29 PM EST
Tchem

Neisha...that is an amazing salary for that age.

A 4 bedroom house will bring you $1200 via section 8

The amazing thing is that for a taxpayer to pay that rent they would need to earn about $1500 month ($18,000/ yr!) just to net that much, and we have not even included food stamps, medicaid, or utility assistance. Add all that together (not including 'welfare' checks), and these benefits would be the equivalent of well over $30,000 gross salary for a taxpaying citizen. The problem is a lack of accountability within the system. Anyone who gets that kind of 'help' and does not improve their situation, does not deserve further 'assistance'. Taxpayers are all about helping others...and completely intolerable of supporting irresponsible behavior.

What one gets without earning, someone else had to earn without getting.

    #1.22 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:38 PM EST
    Tchem

    I dont know about you but I would rather them be able to get a job that sustains them or be able to go back to school and get a degree so they and their potential children and wives/baby mothers dont become system lifers.

    I agree totally Neisha! The ironic part is that working taxpaying citizens are randomly drug tested and fired if found 'contaminated', but the non-working, non-taxpaying ones receiving free money are not required to be drug tested.

    Until black males (as a group) man-up on their parental responsibilities, we will see this cycle of entitlement continue. Unfortunately, the perception of the group is based on the majority's behavior. Even black females are writing about the limited number of responsible males available as lifetime partners, especially since they are getting college educations at a rate almost twice that of black men. Many are too busy making excuses to make any progress though.

      #1.23 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 6:40 PM EST
      Karen in Los Angeles

      WOW. My niece is bi-racial and just graduated from college.

      She and I had a very interesting discussion during the Thanksgiving holiday.

      I told her that it is time for affirmative action to end and that I felt like I am a minority.

      She challenged me - how do you feel like you're a minority:

      1. Affirmative action requires quotas so that THE BEST are not always accepted for jobs or into good schools.

      2. In So. Cal, even though English is the official language of the state, AT LEAST 7 of 10 jobs REQUIRE BILINGUAL applicants.

      3. I pay LOTS of taxes that are used to pay for welfare mothers and deadbeats.

      4. While black people are called African American, white people are called Caucasians. This one really ticks me off. If you want to use the word "caucasian," then the word for black people is "negroid" and the one for asian people is "mongoloid."

      5. WHITE Firefighters in New Haven CT that PASSED the civil service exam to be promoted were denied promotions because the city officials were afraid that PEOPLE OF COLOR would file discrimination lawsuits. What?

      These are only few of them.

      We have a bi-racial President. Affirmative Action served its purpose and it's time to end.

      By the way, she did not really have any comments once she heard these points. What could she say because THEY ARE TRUE.

      • 10 votes
      #1.24 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 8:02 PM EST
      Plantsmantx

      They're not true. I don't know what "affirmative action" has to do with a black President being elected. Were people required to vote for him? Of course not. It's beyond silly to that his election was the result of "affirmative action".

      3. I pay LOTS of taxes that are used to pay for welfare mothers and deadbeats.

      ...most of whom are white.

      1. Affirmative action requires quotas so that THE BEST are not always accepted for jobs or into good schools.

      No, it doesn't require quotas.

      2. In So. Cal, even though English is the official language of the state, AT LEAST 7 of 10 jobs REQUIRE BILINGUAL applicants.

      7 out of 10? I find that very, very...very hard to believe.

      4. While black people are called African American, white people are called Caucasians. This one really ticks me off. If you want to use the word "caucasian," then the word for black people is "negroid" and the one for asian people is "mongoloid."

      You mean "Caucasoid", don't you?

      But...if you "feel like a minority", that's your self-victimization problem- not mine.

      • 3 votes
      #1.25 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 9:31 PM EST
      Karen in Los Angeles

      You may not agree but that is OK. I am a capitalist and based on most of the seeds on Newsvine, most people prefer socialism with Obama leading the way in stealing our money to give to the refuse to workers. I really wish you would all move away. You socialists are ruining our country.

      By the way, do you really believe that you refuted my position. Ha. I don't think so. Just because you say so. You filled some space but so don't we all.

      • 3 votes
      #1.26 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:24 AM EST
      CCArm

      By the way, she did not really have any comments once she heard these points. What could she say because THEY ARE TRUE.

      she probably knows, as we do, that arguing with you is a fruitless effort.

      • 2 votes
      #1.27 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 8:25 AM EST
      wheatfield2

      Hi Friend Karen

      I believe the AFF Action is alive and well and rejuvenated within our legislation mandated from this administration. Here is one recent example:

      Financial Reform Bill Passed by House Would Create 'Office of Minority and Women Inclusion' in Every U.S. Financial Regulatory Agency

      http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/69215

      Quotas Hidden in Bank Reform Bill Will Cost Taxpayers Millions

      http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/financial-reform-quotas-millions-business-taxes-banks-reid-biden-obama/2010/07/15/id/364795

      Affirmative Action Rules hidden in Financial Reform Bill

      http://oregonbusinessreport.com/2010/08/affirmative-action-rules-hidden-new-financial-reform-bill/

      • 1 vote
      #1.28 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 8:31 AM EST
      Karen in Los Angeles

      Hi friend Wheatfield. I am so glad we are friends. Thanks for the backup.

      And to the peanut gallery, because I realize that discrimination against women still exists, I just work harder to get passed the riff raff like you.

      The naysayers on here are the noise the rest of us women have to silence. We end up winning the war because we believe in survival of the fittest and use all means necessary to survive.

      Nonetheless, it is time to end affirmative action.

      • 1 vote
      #1.29 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 9:56 AM EST
      Neish1920

      @ Tchelm,

      No, what I am saying is that the landlords are more likely to flip the house to section 8 because they can get more money from that program that renting to a regular consumer. The program makes the landlord money too....so not just the section 8er is benefiting from the situation.

      Section 8 is income based, so the person living there could still have to pay $800 back into the program. Its just the landlord is compensated higher for the use of their home. In this scenerio, the section 8 recpient is really getting a $100 discount. The land lord's mortgage may be only $500. So they could either make $400 off renting to a full paying renter or make $700 through section 8. More often than not, if a person's income allows them to pay $800, they dont qualify for food stamps, and they definately dont qualify for the TANF check.

      • 1 vote
      #1.30 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 10:07 AM EST
      Neish1920

      Where is the documentation that AA requires Quotas?

      • 3 votes
      #1.31 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 10:12 AM EST
      wheatfield2

      Neish....read my links above!

        #1.32 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 10:27 AM EST
        abolish taxes

        she probably knows, as we do, that arguing with you is a fruitless effort.

        LOL, I'm sure she was just left wondering how in the world she ended up with such a delusional and paranoid aunt. Based on this ladies usual rants and caps lock posts, I imagine she got a little crazy looking in the eyes and face, and the niece was left thinking, oh boy, this one has a screw loose, better just drop it before she has a conniption.

        • 3 votes
        #1.33 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 10:58 AM EST
        Plantsmantx

        Where is the documentation that AA requires Quotas?

        I'm still waiting for an answer to that question, too.

        Affirmative Action Rules hidden in Financial Reform Bill

        There's nothing in there about quotas. But, his claim didn't just pertain to the financial reform bill- the claim was that affirmative action in general "requires quotas". That's not true. As I said before, "affirmative action", as they willfully imagine it, is vestigial, at the most. They know thatl, but why would they let reality spoil a good talking point?

        • 1 vote
        #1.34 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 11:11 AM EST
        Neish1920

        @ wheatfield,

        That means that more have to be hired. Doesnt mean they dont have to meat the minimum qualifications. And as I mentioned before. WHEN The quota is not met, they will have tangible measures to say why. Ford cannot be penalized for only have 4 women working @ the plant when only 5 applied in the first place. Thats the difference between now, and say 30 years ago.

        It doesnt say that they have to actively search and source for minorities either.......So again, they can only work with who applies..........

        I think its funny how redundant the idea is. Women & miniornities, Women ARE minorities.....

        • 3 votes
        #1.35 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 11:13 AM EST
        Tchem

        I don't know what "affirmative action" has to do with a black President being elected. Were people required to vote for him? Of course not. It's beyond silly to that his election was the result of "affirmative action".

        Some folks look at it as he sure did not get elected on the basis of his experience, nor on his questionable past alliances. Whether he got the votes because of the choices available or just because he was a man of color, many do not see him voted for based on his past loyalties, sacrifices for this nation, or experience in politics. Five blacks at my place of employment were trying to convince me he was the best choice, but when asked what his job was before running for Pres. not a single one knew he was a state senator, much less a freshman one. All ignorance requires is smooth rhetoric and the hope for free handouts.

          #1.36 - Sat Dec 4, 2010 12:37 PM EST
          RachaelMM

          but when asked what his job was before running for Pres. not a single one knew he was a state senator, much less a freshman one

          He was, in fact, a United States senator. Not a state senator. Although he was one of those too, his job immediately preceding his successful presidential run was US Senator.

          Regardless, your anecdote has no bearing on the point (and, frankly, it is pretty hard to believe). He was not elected president based on "affirmative action" -- he was duly elected. If people were unaware of his employment at the time of his election, that's their problem, not his. To suggest that only "ignorant" people voted for him is fairly outrageous.

          • 2 votes
          #1.37 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 10:57 AM EST
          Tchem

          He was not elected president based on "affirmative action" --

          Rachael....you are correct on the Senator part. I never said he was elected on 'affirmative action'...I just stated what some folks say about why he was elected. If one was not elected on past credentials, experience, and job performance, then there must be some 'other' reason. I simply provided a personal example of the fact that many voted for him based on other reasons, although those who need the most tend to vote for those who they think will 'give' them the most.

          To suggest that only "ignorant" people voted for him is fairly outrageous.

          Your reading comprehension is slipping...nowhere in my post did I say that nor suggest it. The example used showed how somone ignorant of his experiences or past performances and alliances, still thought he was the one to vote for based on color (same pretense as 'affirmative action'). That does not in any way indicate everyone voted that way. Plenty voted because they thought he was the best of two evils.

          • 1 vote
          #1.38 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 3:04 PM EST
          thinking aloud

          Actually during the '08 election a study done in Harlem found an overwhelming support for Presidential Candidate Obama and his valiant running mate...Sarah Palin. But given that only a slight majority of Americans can name all three branches of government, much less name the Vice President its fairly impressive anyone remembered the vice presidential candidate.

            #1.39 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 3:35 PM EST
            Reply
            proglib

            Every social service that is available to white people is available to minority groups yet under law we are still required to give preference to minorities over whites.

            Please cite a current law that requires us "to give preference to minorities over whites."

            When do minorities that are quickly becoming the majority quit getting special consideration based on ethnicity or sexual gender?

            Ask Sarah Palin. She claims to be reading Thomas Sowell lately, too.

            http://archivist.leapserve.com/

            • 10 votes
            Reply#2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 11:40 AM EST
            Marshall James

            she may be reading the great Dr. Sowell which by the way I have most of his books...but doubt she is fully able to comprehend what he is saying....as liberals do not either.

            he is light years ahead of most of us and is what we should strive for in our thinking and dealing with others.

            peace.

            • 8 votes
            #2.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:08 PM EST
            Ggap

            she may be reading the great Dr. Sowell which by the way I have most of his books...but doubt she is fully able to comprehend what he is saying....as liberals do not either

            Palin would have problems reading and comprehending The Christmas Story. Are you saying that You are more gifted than the great palin? my my.

            • 1 vote
            #2.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:34 PM EST
            Marshall James

            I am not a neocon. so yes I am more gifted.

            • 4 votes
            #2.3 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:35 PM EST
            Tax Small BusinessDeleted
            Reply
            David Boddie

            Wait, I thought in your last article you said that black people were lazy and parasites on the government. Now we're getting preferential treatment when applying for jobs? Which is it, we're lazy or we get all the good jobs?

            • 16 votes
            Reply#3 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 12:11 PM EST
            Marshall James

            david

            have you read Thomas Sowell??

            I suggest you do.

            • 5 votes
            #3.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:09 PM EST
            bonos_rama

            Excellent point, david!!!

            • 4 votes
            #3.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:23 PM EST
            Tax Small BusinessDeleted
            Tchem

            Now we're getting preferential treatment when applying for jobs? Which is it, we're lazy or we get all the good jobs?

            The author did not say ALL the jobs. He said preferential consideration for the jobs they do apply for. Fortunately for the non-minorities there are not many minorities applying. Maybe it is the educational requirements that are keeping them out...or maybe the degree of work ethic required to accomplish the tasks...or the rules and behavior that must be followed. We are referring to a group that statistics show fit all the above requirements.

            • 1 vote
            #3.4 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:12 PM EST
            Tchem

            .

            • 1 vote
            #3.5 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:25 PM EST
            Al1975

            I think the racist nature of this comment, sarcasm included, is a message in and of itself why we need some practices like affirmative action. Imagine if many whites felt the same way as this comment when not calling qualified black men back for interviews.

            • 1 vote
            #3.6 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 10:16 PM EST
            Acapulco Kevin

            @Al1975

            I do think qualified black men should be hired. If the applicant is right for the job the applicant should be hired or admitted. Skin color should never trump qualifications. Black people do not need Affirmative Action laws because they can succeed on their own merit.

            I think Affirmative Action laws are an insult to minorities and discriminatory toward whites.

            • 6 votes
            #3.7 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 10:25 PM EST
            Reply
            Bad Fish

            I support equal rights for every person on the planet, therefore i am against special rights like affirmative action. Equality begins when we all play with the same rules.

            • 13 votes
            Reply#4 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 12:24 PM EST
            Bajee

            American's have had the opportunity to play fair for more than 200 years, but a large amount of them have still refused to. This is basically an example of "If you're not going to grow up and play fair, we are going to force you". If you don't believe that everyone is discriminatory (admitting to my own faults as well) I suggest you check out the hidden camera show "What would you do". Basically it puts unsuspecting people in conflict situations, and tests how people react differently depending on things such as the race, age, or gender of the actors. One of the most shocking ones I saw was where a bunch of teenagers are in a park vandalizing and damaging a car. When the black kids do it there are something like three 911 calls within an hour. When the white kids do it there were two calls, but the calls were not for the white kids bashing up the car. The calls were for the black kids sleeping in another car across the street waiting for their turn at the experiment.

            • 7 votes
            #4.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 12:49 PM EST
            Acapulco Kevin

            If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labeled a radical 60 years ago, a liberal 30 years ago and a racist today.
            Thomas Sowell

            • 6 votes
            #4.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:33 PM EST
            Plantsmantx

            That's empty rhetoric. When Sowell shows that he's actually against anti-black racism, rather than a defender of it, we'll believe he's being sincere about those kinds of pronouncements.

            • 4 votes
            #4.3 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:44 PM EST
            Acapulco Kevin

            Blacks who have not succumbed to the victim culture have been, are, and will be doing quite well - all on their own, without handouts, affirmative action, and other patronizing measures.
            Tammy Bruce

            A lifelong Democrat, Ms. Bruce worked on a number of Democratic campaigns in 1990s, including the 1992 Boxer and Feinstein senate races and the Clinton for President campaign.

            • 5 votes
            #4.4 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:48 PM EST
            Plantsmantx

            A lifelong Democrat,

            That's just a political version of "The Appeal to Melanin", LOL.

            Blacks who have not succumbed to the victim culture have been, are, and will be doing quite well - all on their own, without handouts, affirmative action, and other patronizing measures.

            Tell me...what percentage of the black population fits Tammy Bruce's description, in your estimation?

            • 5 votes
            #4.5 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:50 PM EST
            Marshall James

            some people just have the poor me victim mentality acupulco.

            they are a victim and there is no convincing them otherwise. they do not believe that their life is their responsibility.

            its like going to a prison..and everyone there is innocent...the judge @!$%#ed them as they love to say.

            • 7 votes
            #4.6 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:05 PM EST
            Plantsmantx

            LOL...in your minds, a black person who resists anti-black racism is a "victim", and one who capitulates to it is "an independent thinker", which is synonymous with "hero" in your rhetorical playbook. Let me stop laughing.... Ah, ok. One more time- for that rhetorical tapdance to work, black people have to buy it.

            • 7 votes
            #4.7 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:09 PM EST
            Bad Fish

            While i believe the intentions of affirmative action were good, the very principle of discriminating to provide equality is flawed. How can we support that in which we have all deemed unjust?

            • 7 votes
            #4.8 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:11 PM EST
            CCArm

            some people just have the poor me victim mentality acupulco.

            and it knows no color.

            Ya'll love kicking around AA, remember women benefited by it too. I know I did in my first business.

            Whites are taking on the "victim hood" mantle pretty darn good. Blame all the lazy blacks for their woes in life.

            • 7 votes
            #4.9 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:55 PM EST
            Plantsmantx

            Whites are taking on the "victim hood" mantle pretty darn good.

            Some certainly are, LOL. I'm reminded of the post about many red states getting more than a dollar back for every one they send to Washington in taxes. Someone from Mississippi had the nerve to say that whites in that state tend not to do well because blacks are lazy, and they (Mississippi whites) can't make enough money off them. The average rightist doesn't think that's an outrageous statement.

            Anyway, as I said before, at the very most, only vestiges of what these people are calling "affirmative action" still exists, and if that little bit were wiped away, they still wouldn't admit that full-on, "all quotas, all the time" affirmative action was nonexistent. It's a red herring. For them, "affirmative action" will be non-existent when employment discrimination against minorities can be practiced with complete impunity. Unless and until that happens, they will whine about "affirmative action".

            • 7 votes
            #4.10 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:55 PM EST
            Reply
            katrix

            Long gone are the days of segregation and racial inequality.

            Really? Check out the studies that have been done on the callback ratio for resumes with names like "Tyrone" and "Tashika" as opposed to "Emily" or "Greg."

            • 10 votes
            #5 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 12:24 PM EST
            ms-984397

            Does it occur to you it may have something to do with the entire resume and not just the name?

            • 5 votes
            #5.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:06 PM EST
            Marshall James

            yea its just like the studies that showed that blacks with same income were turned down for more housing loans than whites....it didnt take into account the debt/iincome ratio. it also didnt take into affect that asian americans with same income were approved at greater rate than whites...

            but that isnt convienent to the liberal racist establishment of making victims and criminals out of certain aspects to our society and wanting racial strife.

            the liberal agenda makes me sick.

            • 9 votes
            #5.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:16 PM EST
            Plantsmantx

            Really? Check out the studies that have been done on the callback ratio for resumes with names like "Tyrone" and "Tashika" as opposed to "Emily" or "Greg."

            ...or check out the studies that show that a white man with a prison record is at least as likely to get a callback as a black man with no criminal record. That's the real "affirmative action" that has always been in effect.

            Does it occur to you it may have something to do with the entire resume and not just the name?

            No, it doesn't. In other words, that's no excuse. Katrix is talking about studies in which people (both black and white) working with the researchers pose as job applicants. "Tyrone's" and "Tashika's" resumes are made up to be equal or better than "Emily's" or "Greg's".

            • 7 votes
            #5.3 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:58 PM EST
            Marshall James

            and what about the studies that show asians get preferential treatment over whites??

            are asians the ones in charge??? the are racist against everyone else??

            • 7 votes
            #5.4 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:06 PM EST
            katrix

            Plants is right, the resumes were made so the candidates with "black" names were at least as qualified as the ones with "white" names. And they also showed that an increase in qualifications on the resume increased the callback ratio for the "white" names far more than it did for the "black" names.

            • 3 votes
            #5.5 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:08 PM EST
            Plantsmantx

            and what about the studies that show asians get preferential treatment over whites??

            Which ones are those?

            are asians the ones in charge??? the are racist against everyone else??

            I don't know...are they racist against everyone else? That's assuming there really are studies showing that Asians get "preferential treatment", however you're defining that term. The only studies I know about are the ones showing that Asians are being discriminated against in college admissions at elite universities.

            • 4 votes
            #5.6 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:15 PM EST
            Marshall James

            again

            you do not want to see reality or have read Dr. Sowell. He gives all the studies and statistics to back up those claims in his books.

            the same studies that showed blacks denied home loans and greater rate than whites also showed whites denied at greater rate than asians.

            but we didnt hear that in the news did we??

            just that blacks denied at greater rate than whites...and that is his point...we are being manipulated and brainwashed into thinking a certain way. if people truly cared about rights or individuals they would publish the truth...they do not...therefore it is not accurate and its an agenda that is not fair.

            plants

            I would be embarassed if I were you that you have fallen for this bull@!$%#.

            wake up man.

            empower yourself.

            • 7 votes
            #5.7 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:22 PM EST
            Plantsmantx

            Give me a link to those studies showing Asians receiving "preferential treatment".

            http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2006/11/26/victim_of_success/

            http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2009/05/discrimination-against-asian-americans-in-college-admissions/

            http://www.nationalaffairs.com/public_interest/detail/diversity-or-discrimination-asian-americans-in-college

            http://www.anbmsource.com/node/17

            http://www.browndailyherald.com/campus-news/two-students-challenge-asian-american-admission-discrimination-1.1674972

            http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/10/12/24103/

            http://www.discriminations.us/2006/10/discrimination_against_asians.html

            ...some links to what I'm talking about- your turn.

            • 4 votes
            #5.8 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:29 PM EST
            Marshall James

            plants

            read his books...it will be under the notes section

            stop sticking your head in the sand....anyone can get a study to show bias one way or another.

            that is Dr. Sowells point...we are being manipulated

            how can you not understand that???

            • 4 votes
            #5.9 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:32 PM EST
            Plantsmantx

            just that blacks denied at greater rate than whites...and that is his point...we are being manipulated and brainwashed into thinking a certain way.

            ...a devotee of the cult of Lew Rockwell telling somebody else that they're brainwashed? That's the best laugh I've had all day:).

            plants

            read his books...it will be under the notes section

            No links, huh? I'm not going to waste time asking for them again. I'll just note that you can't come up with them.

            • 6 votes
            #5.10 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:35 PM EST
            Marshall James

            http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/well-off-blacks-denied-loans-more-than-low-income-whites-646413.html

            the above is the type of story I am talking about

            http://www.ffiec.gov/hmcrpr/hm093009.htm

            above is where it says asians are less likely to get higher priced lending.

            the first story of course does not mention this....just how blacks are victims to whites without mentioning how whites are victims to asians.

            are you starting to get it now???

            • 5 votes
            #5.11 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:41 PM EST
            Plantsmantx

            The overall incidence of higher-priced lending reported in the 2008 HMDA data for all racial and ethnic groups was much lower than reported in 2007. However, the 2008 HMDA data, similar to the data from earlier years, indicate that black and Hispanic white borrowers were more likely, and Asian borrowers less likely, to obtain higher-priced loans than were non-Hispanic white borrowers. For conventional home-purchase lending in 2008, the incidence of higher-priced lending (not adjusted for lender or borrower-related factors) was 17.1 percent for blacks, 15.4 percent for Hispanic whites, 6.5 percent for non-Hispanic whites, and 3.3 percent for Asians. In addition, for both home-purchase and refinance lending in 2008, blacks and Hispanic whites had notably higher gross denial rates than non-Hispanic whites. The pattern for Asians was somewhat different, as the gross denial rate for this group was higher for home-purchase loans than for non-Hispanic whites, but about the same for refinance loans.

            are you starting to get it now???

            I get what I've "gotten" from the start- the predilection toward dishonesty. The article simply states that Asians were rejected for initial home purchase loans at a lower rate. It says nothing about income or credit history in regard to Asians.

            he first story of course does not mention this....just how blacks are victims to whites without mentioning how whites are victims to asians.

            What? You think whites are victims to Asians because they were rejected for loans at a lower rate? Is that the way you see it?

            • 4 votes
            #5.12 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:54 PM EST
            Marshall James

            no i dont think whites are victims.

            lol but you should with the mentality you have....that if people are denied home loans at a greater rate than the people who get approved at a higher rate are discriminating.

            the funny thing is....like I said the first article doesnt mention how asians beat everyone.

            so if whites were so racist the why would a minority be doing the best???

            the studies and polls and statistics they present only give out certain information.

            banks dont give a @!$%# about your color...they want to make money plain and simple.....if you have the credit history you will get the loan.

            to think otherwise would then go against the liberal mindset that corporations are greedy. lol

            which one is it??? the are racist and dont want to make money or they are not racist and want to make money and approve those who deserve it??

            lets make up our minds left wing.

            • 5 votes
            #5.13 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:03 PM EST
            Acapulco Kevin

            Capitalism knows only one color: that color is green; all else is necessarily subservient to it, hence, race, gender and ethnicity cannot be considered within it.
            Dr. Thomas Sowell

            • 4 votes
            #5.14 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:11 PM EST
            Polka14

            Sowell is right about that. Capitalists only care about money.

              #5.15 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:12 PM EST
              Plantsmantx

              so if whites were so racist the why would a minority be doing the best???

              Who said "whites" are so racist?

              no i dont think whites are victims.

              lol but you should with the mentality you have

              There's that hilarious lack of self-awareness again. Out of the two of us, you have a tendency to talk in blanket terms of "blacks" and "whites"...not me. As I said, the information at that link only talks about Asians being rejected for home loans at a lower rate than whites or blacks. It says nothing about why that's the case. If you're trying to suggest that they were rejected less often than whites because they tend to have higher incomes and better credit ratings, and that blacks are complaining for nothing, the first link you pasted puts the lie to that talking point. It's not that "blacks", as a people were rejected more often. That isn't the point. That point is that blacks with high incomes and good credit ratings were rejected.

              • 3 votes
              #5.16 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:17 PM EST
              Marshall James

              plants

              so then corporations are not greedy. its just one big conspiracy against AMERICAN blacks. because if you have read Black Rednecks and White Liberals he gives statistics on black who have immigrated here and what they accomplish vs the american blacks.....so the banks....only discriminate against american blacks...but not haitian blacks???

              gotcha

              lol

              • 3 votes
              #5.17 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:25 PM EST
              greck

              banks dont give a @!$%# about your color...they want to make money plain and simple.....if you have the credit history you will get the loan.

              Capitalism knows only one color: that color is green;

              when did that start though? That hasn't always been the case. This has only been the way of things for about a generation now, and it was forced by desegregation. Prior to the 60's it was perfectly acceptable to have a "whites only" business, and perfectly profitable.

              It's plenty easy to stand atop the shoulders of those who fought for one's right to be there and criticize those who are still fighting.

              • 3 votes
              #5.18 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:27 PM EST
              zanilth

              Plantsmantx, NONE of the studies can be considered even close to accurate unless ALL of the determining factors used to give approval or denial are released, and ALL of each participator's personal information was released.

              No study releases all of that information, and numerous times it has been shown that skewing a study/poll is quite easy.

              You shouldn't necessarily believe what the media and government tell you, because for everything they tell you, there are 100 things they forget to mention.

              Everyone should do their best to remember that, whether you believe X study or Y study.

              • 4 votes
              #5.19 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:53 PM EST
              JaDarius JacksonDeleted
              Reply
              greck

              nitpick:
              there's no such thing as "reverse discrimination."

              there's just "discrimination."

              yes, AA policies are discriminatory, they always have been. They're intended to be a counterbalance to the existing discrimination against minorities with the aim of creating a culture wherein people of color and other minorities participate in all levels of society, taking away the natural tendency of groups of like people to discriminate against the different.

              that being said:

              When do minorities that are quickly becoming the majority quit getting special consideration based on ethnicity or sexual gender? The year is 2010, do we really need Affirmative Action or has it become Reverse Discrimination?

              when it's empirically demonstrable that minorities aren't descriminated against by members of the majority in any sort of widespread way. Should be simple enough. Applicable research methodologies have existed for decades now.

              • 6 votes
              Reply#6 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 12:29 PM EST
              zanilth

              I was wondering if anyone was going to put the point about 'reverse discrimination' being the incorrect term.

              It seems it has been accepted as proper though, which makes absolutely no sense.

              when it's empirically demonstrable that minorities aren't descriminated against by members of the majority in any sort of widespread way.

              The problem with this is quite often, a person will be not choosed for a position (or whatever the case may be) and while it was based on various random considerations, the person usually doesn't know about those... And commences to cry discrimination. THAT will have to stop before anything else.

              • 3 votes
              #6.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:55 PM EST
              greck

              THAT will have to stop before anything else.

              I don't think so. I don't think you ever want to take away someone's ability to grieve, even if it's being abused. The last thing you want people who perceive themselves to be powerless to feel is more powerless.

              What "that" is a symptom of is this: black people have not traditionally ever been able to rule out race as a factor, ever. Whether it's regarding not getting a job or why someone maybe stared at them a little longer than was comfortable, or why a waiter gave them lousy service. Can't say for sure if the person just a jerk, sucks at his job, or a racist.

              so unless it's ruled-out, they can't rule it out. I think "that" will stop after a generation of good solid evidence that it isn't "that."

              • 2 votes
              #6.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:08 PM EST
              zanilth

              I don't think you ever want to take away someone's ability to grieve, even if it's being abused

              Not what I was talking about. Grieving is one thing, but immaturely blaming it on everything else (or just race) when chances are it is because you don't have enough experience, don't have the full qualifications, etc. is what I am talking about.

              This mentality and action extends far beyond just the job field though, and it infects more people everywhere than anything I can think of. When something happens (generally speaking btw,) people nowadays don't get back up, dust themselves off, and do what it takes to avoid that again, they sit around and try to assign blame to anything and everything possible, hoping to somehow get lucky and try to get it handed to them (figurately speaking, referring to whatever 'happened' in the first place.)

              That isn't assigned to any specific race, however it is played differently dependant on said race.

              • 1 vote
              #6.3 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 9:18 AM EST
              greck

              Grieving is one thing, but immaturely blaming it on everything else (or just race) when chances are it is because you don't have enough experience, don't have the full qualifications, etc. is what I am talking about.

              yeah, but that's a matter of perspective. It would be really nice if all of us could see the world the way it is, rather than the way we are, but we're just not that well equipped.

              people nowadays don't get back up, dust themselves off, and do what it takes to avoid that again, they sit around and try to assign blame to anything and everything possible, hoping to somehow get lucky and try to get it handed to them (figurately speaking, referring to whatever 'happened' in the first place.)

              human nature hasn't changed a whole lot in the last few million years. I really don't think that "people nowadays" are any different from any other days we can recall, except maybe we're a little better fed. Technology changes, cultures change, people really don't.

                #6.4 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 2:13 PM EST
                zanilth

                I really don't think that "people nowadays" are any different from any other days we can recall

                I actually disagree with this. Even as recent as the early 1900s (10s, 20s,) based on what I've accumulated from research, discussion, etc. people were different. They lived in different timeframes, and had a different outlook on life in general. Even today, different people have a different perspective and outlook based on numerous things, to include location and legal constraints. Back then, even though the physical location may have been the same, times were different... People interacted with each other differently, in good ways and bad.

                • 2 votes
                #6.5 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 2:55 PM EST
                greck

                Even as recent as the early 1900s (10s, 20s,) based on what I've accumulated from research, discussion, etc. people were different. They lived in different timeframes, and had a different outlook on life in general. Even today, different people have a different perspective and outlook based on numerous things, to include location and legal constraints. Back then, even though the physical location may have been the same, times were different... People interacted with each other differently, in good ways and bad.

                but that's all situational and superficial stuff. Any person plucked from another timeframe put into this one or vice-versa would adapt pretty quickly to advances in or lack of technology and the changed culture. A liar and a cheat would still be both in either time, as would someone who can't take responsibility for himself.

                • 1 vote
                #6.6 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 3:11 PM EST
                zanilth

                Correct.

                What I'm saying is that based on what I've found, there were generally less liars and cheats back then (of course, there were less people too... But still.)

                • 2 votes
                #6.7 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 3:24 PM EST
                greck

                What I'm saying is that based on what I've found, there were generally less liars and cheats back then

                I highly doubt that. I mean, I believe that total number of liars and cheats has gone up proportionately with the population, but there's no way there's a higher percentage of such now than then. Although I'm not exactly sure if that's what you're saying.

                In fact, I'd posit that if culture and "the times" influences those things in any real way, there would be less liars and cheats now, because there are more ways of (and thus a greater probability of) getting caught.

                  #6.8 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 3:47 PM EST
                  thinking aloud

                  Liars and cheats are like left hand people, a similar percentage in any sized population. Likewise there has always been one cheat to two suckers.

                    #6.9 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 5:28 PM EST
                    zanilth

                    but there's no way there's a higher percentage of such now than then.

                    I believe there is, but it's because the opportunity is higher for such to happen now than it was then. A thief who hasn't stolen anything isn't a thief until they do steal, so if the opportunity denied in the past, the numbers would be lower.

                      #6.10 - Sat Dec 4, 2010 8:43 AM EST
                      Reply
                      BLOGER-486140

                      You could look at that another way. Upper and middle class blacks might have been even more successfulif they didn't historically deal with discrimination. The are problems with the program. It should be reserved for Americans who historically faced discrimination within the United States. Too ofter affirmative action is applied to recent immigrants who didn't face discrimination within the US. I also think this is a program that can be eventually phased out in a generation or two. Anyone who thinks minorities had the same opportunities as the majority white population prior to around 1970 is delusional. Yes many whites face some discrimination but theirs wasn't legally robustly enforced by the state and in place for centuries. Discrimination against whites wasn't a defacto government sanctioned attempt to permanently separate them from the social mainstream.

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#7 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 12:30 PM EST
                      Acapulco Kevin

                      Much of the social history of the Western world, over the past three decades, has been a history of replacing what worked with what sounded good.
                      Thomas Sowell

                      • 5 votes
                      #7.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:36 PM EST
                      Marshall James

                      very true statement

                      wasnt that from Intellectuals and Society??

                      • 2 votes
                      #7.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:29 PM EST
                      Acapulco Kevin

                      Yes.

                      • 1 vote
                      #7.3 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:43 PM EST
                      Reply
                      I'm Ringo

                      There is no reverse, only discrimination.

                      • 7 votes
                      Reply#8 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 12:37 PM EST
                      betty j.

                      I agree. Michigan recently did away with Affirmative Action policy in civil service state jobs. All of a sudden women in the Upper Peninsula were targeted for firing and many of us lost our jobs due to crazy white male supervisors being backed by an unknowledgable minority white female director who knew nothing of the ins and outs of the prisons since she only had experience in accounting. She may have been a token hire, but she backed up her bigots who were white males and they fired us with enormous speed. Anyone who had a complaint got canned. Anyone who filed a sexual harassment complaint was harassed and terminated. Anyone who was written up for a rule violation never had proper union representation and was terminated because the other side of the story never got to Lansing. Screw them all. They reek of a stench similar to the Third Reich.

                      • 3 votes
                      #8.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 8:20 PM EST
                      Reply
                      Polka14

                      Reverse discrimination doesn't exist. Whites should stop whining and let their minority countrymen try and catch up to their levels of success. Same goes with female success. Minorities built this nation but they never were given the same opportunities as the whites. Affirmative Action was created to reverse that. I am sure that not all minorities need Affirmative Action to succeed but some do to overcome the evil powers of white institutional racism. Affirmative Action is a good thing and I will always support it.

                      • 3 votes
                      #9 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 12:42 PM EST
                      ms-984397

                      Wow. No wonder the racial divide is getting wider.
                      "Evil powers of white institutional racism"?? how frightening and magical it sounds.

                      • 5 votes
                      #9.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:11 PM EST
                      Marshall James

                      polka

                      somehow I am not suprised that you believe in forcing morality upon the masses by the government.

                      maybe you should read

                      Intellectuals and Society

                      by Thomas Sowell

                      Its a great book and would love to hear your thoughts on the statistical evidence that challenges the status quo.

                      but growing as a person and freedom isnt something you believe in.

                      peace.

                      • 4 votes
                      #9.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:13 PM EST
                      Polka14

                      how frightening and magical it sounds.

                      Maybe you should actually look it up instead of mocking it. Maybe you will learn something.

                      but growing as a person and freedom isnt something you believe in.

                      I believe in freedom. Possibly stronger then you even.

                        #9.3 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:13 PM EST
                        I'm Ringo

                        Wow Polka, with that kind of fondness for racism and government race-based discrimination, you probably are just dreading the day that every person is treated equally under the law.

                        I believe in freedom.

                        And government sex and race based discrimination has no place in freedom.

                        • 4 votes
                        #9.4 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:16 PM EST
                        Marshall James

                        so polka

                        with asian americans constantly doing better than whites...getting approved for home loans at a higher rate even though the same income.....better unemployment ratio

                        are you saying that asian americans are in power???? if whites in power and racist then why would they let the asians come in and take over??

                        your need for a "victim" is just pathetic.

                        people in this country as a whole are judged upon what they can do and what they cannot.

                        peace

                        and compared to me you know nothing of freedom....you do know more about wanting slavery however.

                        • 5 votes
                        #9.5 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:19 PM EST
                        Polka14

                        Racism? I obviously oppose racism because I support Affirmative Action that helps minorities overcome white institutional racism. But I guess you don't believe that white institutional racism even exists.

                        and compared to me you know nothing of freedom....you do know more about wanting slavery however.

                        This is ridiculous! I have only supported real freedoms. Not fake freedoms.

                        And government sex and race based discrimination has no place in freedom.

                        It is equality, not discrimination. I happily support Affirmative Action because it helps those that have been historically disadvantaged.

                        • 2 votes
                        #9.6 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:19 PM EST
                        Marshall James

                        by taking away from those who do not have power.

                        what you dont understand polka...the whites you are thinking of and the big money they made off of slavery.......the families dont worry about affirmative action.

                        it affects whites who never owned slaves......who are poor.....it just causes racial problems and takes revenge against those who are innocent.

                        fighting racism with racism is never right.

                        NEVER

                        • 6 votes
                        #9.7 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:24 PM EST
                        I'm Ringo

                        One cannot oppose racism by supporting more of it.

                        Opposition to racism means support for equality, not support for racist policies or laws.

                        • 7 votes
                        #9.8 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:25 PM EST
                        ms-984397

                        Where in the heck is the "equality" in taking someone less qualified for a job based on race?

                        • 3 votes
                        #9.9 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:26 PM EST
                        Polka14

                        Opposition to racism means support for equality, not support for racist policies or laws.

                        When equality truly exists, we will no longer need Affirmative Action. That is my stance on this issue.

                        • 2 votes
                        #9.10 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:27 PM EST
                        Marshall James

                        POLKA

                        like i said read Sowell

                        he takes the so called statistics of racism and shows how biased and inaccurate they are.

                        for instance. unemployment of black married couples is the same as white married couples.

                        if racism truly existed wouldnt there be a difference??? so now you want us to think that whites are only racist against single blacks...but not married blacks or asians or hispanics??

                        lol

                        unbelievable.

                        • 2 votes
                        #9.11 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:31 PM EST
                        I'm Ringo

                        Equality cannot exist as long as affirmative action continues.

                        • 5 votes
                        #9.12 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:32 PM EST
                        ms-984397

                        And my stance is we will never have true equality while we have Affirmative Action.

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.13 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:32 PM EST
                        Polka14

                        Anyone that opposes Affirmative Action can never truly understand its purpose. You don't understand that whites are still preferred in this nation and given special treatment and are represented more in media. Yes, even though it is 2010. And you speak of true equality?

                          #9.14 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:35 PM EST
                          Marshall James

                          whites are the majority still.

                          I take it you have never read thomas sowell......not suprising.

                          • 2 votes
                          #9.15 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:36 PM EST
                          I'm Ringo

                          Those supporting it can never truly understand that racism is bad, no matter what group is the target.

                          • 5 votes
                          #9.16 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:38 PM EST
                          Acapulco Kevin

                          Liberals seem to assume that, if you don't believe in their particular political solutions, then you don't really care about the people that they claim to want to help.
                          Thomas Sowell

                          • 4 votes
                          #9.17 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:38 PM EST
                          Polka14

                          Those supporting it can never truly understand that racism is bad, no matter what group is the target.

                          Of course it is bad. That is why I support Affirmative Action.

                          I take it you have never read thomas sowell......not suprising.

                          I will research the man. If I find him to be an appropriate person to acknowledge, then I will consider reading his book, okay?

                            #9.18 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:41 PM EST
                            Plantsmantx

                            Liberals seem to assume that, if you don't believe in their particular political solutions, then you don't really care about the people that they claim to want to help.
                            Thomas Sowell

                            More often than not, that's because those people are almost always obvious defenders of the status quo.

                            • 4 votes
                            #9.19 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:41 PM EST
                            I'm Ringo

                            'Racism is bad, so I support racism'....that's really your argument?

                            Affirmative action is racist and sexist, which is why the people opposing those things oppose it as well.

                            • 4 votes
                            #9.20 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:51 PM EST
                            Acapulco Kevin

                            Exactly my point. Affirmative Action is just that, racism against white people to counter perceived racism against minorities.

                            How does using racism help solve racism?

                            It does not, it can not.

                            • 6 votes
                            #9.21 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:00 PM EST
                            Polka14

                            At least it would be a just counter.

                              #9.22 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:03 PM EST
                              Plantsmantx

                              'Racism is bad, so I support racism'....that's really your argument?

                              This is what I said in comment #1.6:

                              But, as I've said more than once...assuming for the sake of argument that it actually exists, go ahead and abolish it. Black people will barely notice.

                              The issue here isn't really "affirmative action". The issue that has people like you upset is the possibility of the absence of employment discrimination against minorities. In fact, in your zero-sum minds, definition of "affirmative action" is "the absence of employment discrimination against minorities".

                              • 6 votes
                              #9.23 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:03 PM EST
                              Marshall James

                              polka

                              I doubt you will ever read thomas sowell.....for one he does not go along with your victim agenda. he is black and grew up before the CRA and was a success before all of this.

                              he proves his points with statistics...and we all know liberals love to ignore reality.

                              fighting racism with racism is wrong....and as he points out in Intellectual and Society...is it really antidiscrimination or revenge???

                              he seems to think its revenge based.

                              its not a way to go about

                              we are doomed if that is our mentality.

                              If you want a recommendation I would love to give it to you. Intellectuals and Society is number 2 on my list by him...

                              if you really want to focus on race relations and racial tensions and relationships with society read

                              Black Rednecks and White Liberals.

                              that is in my top 5 favorite books of all time....and what got me hooked on Dr. Sowell.

                              peace.

                              • 3 votes
                              #9.24 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:11 PM EST
                              Acapulco Kevin

                              @james-1416766

                              Very good points.

                                #9.25 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:15 PM EST
                                Polka14

                                Fine, I will check if "Intellectuals and Society" is at the public library. Then I will read it and determine if it has had any impact on my thinking on Affirmative Action.

                                  #9.26 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:35 PM EST
                                  Marshall James

                                  Polka

                                  Intellectuals and Society doesnt focus on affirmative action or race....it focuses on the intellectuals and how society is shaped by them.

                                  Like I said.

                                  black rednecks and white liberals is much better......but if not there intellectuals and society is a good read and will get you familiar iwth Dr. Sowell. It does delve into race a bit as he loves to talk about it....and challenge the status quo.

                                    #9.27 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:44 PM EST
                                    Polka14

                                    That book sounds racist to me. I don't know if I should be reading that. The author may be black but I would question where his intentions lie.

                                      #9.28 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:48 PM EST
                                      Acapulco Kevin

                                      @Polka14

                                      most black people I would imagine disagree with him even though he is black simply because he does not believe that black people in America should be preferentially treated because of race.

                                      That ideology does not fit the Al Sharpton ideology of "Being oppressed by the man"

                                      • 4 votes
                                      #9.29 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:54 PM EST
                                      Marshall James

                                      lol

                                      he goes into the history of america in that book and looks at the black culture and what it embraces.

                                      how they were affected by their white slave owners and the culture they absorbed from them.

                                      it is not racist and will open your eyes greatly to race relations in the United States.

                                      the entire book is about race and how it is dealt with just not here but worldwide.

                                      its incredible.......and I cant stress enough to not let the title scare you away.

                                      you can read reviews here....the book is one you cannot put down...guarantee it...it will transform your ideas on the world and how we are presented as victims and what reality really is.

                                      http://www.amazon.com/Black-Rednecks-Liberals-Thomas-Sowell/dp/1594030863/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1291319736&sr=1-1

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #9.30 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:58 PM EST
                                      boomer 54

                                      Just because Dr. Sowell opinion fits your agenda, and to boot he's black does not make him right. He's made a right nice living preaching to the conservatives. I respect the man, I just think he is wrong. I would also like to see something proving that black and white couples unemployment is the same. Polka is right, when racism no longer exists there will be no need for affirmative action.

                                      • 4 votes
                                      #9.31 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:11 PM EST
                                      Marshall James

                                      boomer

                                      again fighting racism with racism is not right and never will be. Only through freedom and leading by example will mankind ever make great strides.

                                      boomer

                                      so you really want to argue that unemployment for black married persons is the same as single married persons???

                                      do you really want to go there??? and if not then you would concede that siince there is a different rate that racism is not the reason for single black unemployment.

                                      hence Dr. Sowells point.

                                      but if you want to go there I would gladly help you look foolish.

                                      let me know.

                                        #9.32 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:29 PM EST
                                        Marshall James

                                        oops...should of stated single persons not single married persons...sorry I think faster than I can type.

                                        peace.

                                          #9.33 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:41 PM EST
                                          boomer 54

                                          Until we can lead by good example, that point is moot. No, I don't want to argue anything. I do, however, want to learn. I've never read that statistic before, and sincerely wanted to know. Well, if you want to try and make me look foolish, that's ok. I can't figure out why, I thought the reason to be on the vine was to talk and learn in a forum that is big enough for lots of opinions.

                                          So, I'm letting you know---go for it. Oh, Yeah, and have a great day!

                                            #9.34 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:54 PM EST
                                            Marshall James

                                            boomer

                                            if you truly want to get an opposing view with proof to back up the claims...read Thomas Sowell.

                                            black rednecks and white liberals is the best on this issue.

                                            peace.

                                              #9.35 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:58 PM EST
                                              boomer 54

                                              My butt is not where my mouth is. I do and have read Dr. Sowell. Have not read all of his books, but I do read his column often. I still don't agree with much that he writes. I will read the book you posted on.

                                              I do wish you peace.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #9.36 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:03 PM EST
                                              Marshall James

                                              my apologies if I was insulting.

                                                #9.37 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:14 PM EST
                                                boomer 54

                                                Hey James--I'm all about gettin' along...:)

                                                  #9.38 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:39 PM EST
                                                  I'm Ringo

                                                  Plantsmantx, the post was in response to Polka, my page hadn't refreshed, so I never saw your post at all until just now.

                                                  That being said,

                                                  The issue that has people like you upset is the possibility of the absence of employment discrimination against minorities. In fact, in your zero-sum minds, definition of "affirmative action" is "the absence of employment discrimination against minorities".

                                                  In fact, you are pulling @!$%# out of your ass and blatantly lying. I don't like racism. The only person I could possibly see having a problem with that is a racist person....which leaves us with the question of what you have against opposition to racism.

                                                    #9.39 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:53 PM EST
                                                    Reply
                                                    ms-984397

                                                    If affirmative action doesn't come to an soon equality will never come close to being a reality. If knowing, even in the back of your mind, that you are getting a leg up or special treatment merely for the color of you skin or your gender how will you ever really believe you were the best one for the job? the most qualified? or were there those who were better then you and you now have no way of knowing what to do to actually be the most qualified or the best all around fit?
                                                    Affirmative action was a noble idea, it was needed to get on the right track, but if continued indefinitely all the good it did the beginning will be overlooked by what it is becoming.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #10 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:21 PM EST
                                                    zanilth

                                                    The problem with your statement is that most who receive the 'leg up' due to Affirmative Action don't realize it is because of that. They don't realize that AA is what gave them that leg up, so when you say "Hey, having this extra 'leg up' isn't fair to anyone", they think you are attacking them for something else.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #10.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:55 PM EST
                                                    Plantsmantx

                                                    To the extent that anyone still receives a "leg up" from affirmative action, which at best is much, much less than these people pretend it is, it's only one reason why some people receive a "leg up", and it's nowhere near the most common reason. Yet, these people only object to this particular reason, and we know why.

                                                    • 3 votes
                                                    #10.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:04 PM EST
                                                    Neish1920

                                                    @ zanilith

                                                    AA may get a person in the door but it cant go to class for them, take the test, or show up to work for them either.

                                                    Why it has failed is because in the past, employers have been too lazy to create a tangible measure upon which to show who applies and and who gets hired. Its very easy to prove you are hiring quality when you have the numbers to show that your company only has 5 black people out of 60 because only 8 applied and 3 of them couldnt pass the basic test for the position.

                                                    In my HR office.... A person is called for testing and the testing is sent to them via email. If they past the test they are brought in for an interview (our tests are pass fail, there are no "scores") It would not be until they came in the door that we would ever know what their race was. So if someone the testing failed and said it was because they are black, they would have no standing as we never saw them, just the result. AND since there are plenty of black people who work here and have passed, the testing bias wont work either.

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    #10.3 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:07 PM EST
                                                    Plantsmantx

                                                    Neisha, as someone who would certainly know, what's the difference between "affirmative action" in 2010 as these people portray it, and affirmative action as it really is?

                                                      #10.4 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:11 PM EST
                                                      Neish1920

                                                      The difference now is that the TANGIBLE measures used in testing have been improved can be sent out and collected better without ever having seen the person so the idea that you were not selected based on race is null.

                                                      Job descriptions are very specific, and easy to refer back too. So if it says you need to have an AA degree and you dont, saying you didnt get hired because of race or gender is moot because dont meet the min qualifications. I have vendors that can call all the way to China to see if a person graduated from a University in Beijing. So if you REALLY have the credentials, we can get them from ANYWHERE.

                                                      The process is now very automated. An EEO surveyor can come in and we can show that an applicant stated they had a degree, we called to verify and the institution stated that person didnt have it. Nevermind race/gender/test biased, they LIED on the APP, EEO complaint thrown out immediately........These vendors are so through they can even tell the date the person acutally left the school and gives the name of the person contacted.

                                                      Adding to this, some companies outsource recruiting to agencies all the way in India....that person will never see the people they are calling about jobs, so again, a complaint that its because of race of gender wont work as that person administered testing, or the phone screen and NEVER laid eyes on the person. AND since they are in another country, the idea of a name sounding white, black, male female, knowing the locale wouldnt give them sublte indicators of who that person is, or any idea of where they are from.....

                                                      • 3 votes
                                                      #10.5 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 10:21 AM EST
                                                      Plantsmantx

                                                      Thank you.

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      #10.6 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 11:17 AM EST
                                                      zanilth

                                                      Plantsmantx - Not sure what your post is referring to. People who get hired due to AA usually don't know that is why, because if it were public knowledge the amount of racial profiling is made in deciding jobs and such, there would be huge outrage on ALL sides. Beings as this is the topic of discussion (not anything else,) what other things are you referring to?

                                                      Neish, I agree and understand completely. Getting the job isn't necessarily the hard part, or the last step. It sounds like your company has done a pretty thorough job of ensuring it is the quality and work ethics and performance that gets recognized, not much of any other reason. Aside from regulation standards (needing it if/when someone ever DOES attempt to state discrimination due to race) would you say that AA, in place now, does anything to help your company, or to help racial 'equality' in employment?

                                                        #10.7 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 12:50 PM EST
                                                        shaunb

                                                        .

                                                          #10.8 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:09 PM EST
                                                          Neish1920

                                                          @ Zanlith

                                                          WE dont use AA. Dont have too. We are a level 1 trauma center, that is also one of the premier teaching hospitals in the area. Our lowest paying job (Laundry person) gets paid $11.00. So we have no trouble with diversity in our applicants over all.

                                                          We do have trouble with male nurses and that is primiarily because nursing is seen as "women's work." Based on the number of applicants, they usually get hired in the 90% range, but they dont apply much. When we were asked to break down the numbers, we found that locally and nationally men dont apply to nursing programs in the same numbers as women. So our applicant poole is very small in that area. The adverse is true in IT and plumbing. More men apply than women, and when you break down who majors in that profession, or gets certs..etc women just dont apply for those positions.

                                                            #10.9 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:18 PM EST
                                                            zanilth

                                                            Thank you, Neish.

                                                            Plantsmantx, they don't use AA. They don't have a need for it, it seems. So is it still a valid program for them to use? No. I think you asking Neish about AA in her workplace in 2010 was the wrong question, beacuse it lead the discussion towards showing how it isn't necessary moreso than your position that it is still necessary.

                                                              #10.10 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:24 PM EST
                                                              Plantsmantx

                                                              The bulk of "racial profiling" in employment is directed against black people.

                                                              Plantsmantx - Not sure what your post is referring to.

                                                              I simply asked Neisha to give us a sense of what affirmative action in employment is really like, as opposed to "affirmative action" as mischaracterized by you and other anti-black rightists on this thread. She pretty much confirmed what I said- "affirmative action", if it exists at all in 2010, is vestigial. Almost all of what is left of "affirmative action" consists of outreach efforts. In almost all situations, quotas are illegal. Conservative administrations, who supposedly believed that private businesses should be able to do what they want, went after companies that set up their own affirmative action programs on their own volition.

                                                              Despite all the veiled, deceptive rhetoric here, it's beyond transparent that most of you will feel that "affirmative action" is gone when companies are able to discriminate against minorities with impunity. That's what you really want. When you people talk about "affirmative action", what you're really talking about are anti-discrimination laws.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #10.11 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:26 PM EST
                                                              zanilth

                                                              My unsurity of your post was to the first one made after my statement, not the post to Neish.

                                                              Affirmative Action has led the way for racial quotas and other issues, of which some STILL EXIST. While it was the best thing they could come up with in the past, as YOU have noted here it isn't a big thing now, hardly used. What has caused your change of tune from 'It's GREAT, and will ALWAYS be needed and used!' to 'It isn't even used anymore, so why bicker about it!'?

                                                              Affirmative Action being rarely mis-used now is not the same thing as not needing the policy in the first place. By everyone saying 'get rid of AA', they aren't saying that it is a 'horrible program' that causes daily discrimination against everyone. It does, however, cause the occasional 'hiccup' as noted in the New Haven Firefighter case. Getting rid of a program that is 'virtually useless in 2010' (as your comments have noted) yet causes occasional hiccups (as proven) is not a bad thing.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #10.12 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:35 PM EST
                                                              Neish1920

                                                              @ Zanlith,

                                                              No, its not needed, but its not used in the manner people claim it is either. I think that was the point Plants was trying to draw. We dont have to use it because ANYONE can work @ a hospital. We service the entire community. We want men to come to us before they get so sick they end up in the ER. Since we know they are more prone to be honest about their health with men (we got this from surveys), we purposely seek out male doctors, we do it in nursing too....The measures we use and the reason we seek them can be documented. Lack of documentation is what gets companies in trouble...Like I said, you cant hire who does not apply. And as long as you can show that, you are good. WE can also show WHY we are seeking a certain type of applicant as well.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #10.13 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:40 PM EST
                                                              Plantsmantx

                                                              What has caused your change of tune from 'It's GREAT, and will ALWAYS be needed and used!' to 'It isn't even used anymore, so why bicker about it!'?

                                                              When did I say that? Here's the last paragraph of the first comment I made on this thread, at #1.6:

                                                              Echoing proglib's comment below, "affirmative action", at least in the way it's defined in this seed, barely exists, if it exists at all. It's really a red herring. But, as I've said more than once...assuming for the sake of argument that it actually exists, go ahead and abolish it. Black people will barely notice.

                                                              You're making things up. No, I don't think "affirmative action", as you people define it, is needed. I don't think quotas are needed, except in cases of very blatant discrimination. I have no problem with quotas being illegal in almost all situations.

                                                              It does, however, cause the occasional 'hiccup' as noted in the New Haven Firefighter case. Getting rid of a program that is 'virtually useless in 2010' (as your comments have noted) yet causes occasional hiccups (as proven) is not a bad thing.

                                                              Is that what people are saying on this thread? That affirmative action is "rarely mis-used now"? Come on- they're pretending that the situation is exactly the opposite of that. The fact that you all are saying that it's a "horrible program" and a pervasive one when it's really not is what makes me know that you all aren't really bickering about "affirmative action"- you're bickering about anti-discrimination laws.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #10.14 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:54 PM EST
                                                              zanilth

                                                              Firstly Plantsman, let me apologize. I saw a comment by Polka yesterday and for some reason thought you had made the comment... So I've been responding to you as if you made the comments in post #9, last comment mainly. Whoops!

                                                              What others say and pretend is one thing, whereas my perspective is another. I don't see how affirmative action, in dealing with this specific area of it (not dealing also with women, etc.) is still useful. Compared to what it does allow (however frequently, I've never said it was often) it has no use.

                                                              In my line of work, appearances are everything (although one of my issues is I don't look at base appearance... but that's just me personally.) AA gives the appearance (and action) of discriminating to stop discrimination. Because of this and how people used it (intended use and actual use are two different things, with EVERYTHING) I feel it shouldn't be still used.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #10.15 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 3:31 PM EST
                                                              Reply
                                                              Sally - Snoopy's Sister

                                                              Affirmative Action can cause those whose it is to apply it to deny employment to one race or gender that is perceived to be overabundant with a perceived minority. Mistakes have been made. I think it's time to admit it. Some Caucasian males were overlooked in preference to minorities. Equally, some Caucasian females were overlooked for employment because many US citizens assume she has a financially secure husband, brother, or father and the need for a job is not as urgent. Also true is that minorities have been essentially held back in gainful positions of employment historically in the United States.

                                                              Ideally, it would be great if we could rely on employers to do things right and hire fairly. But, I will also say that replacing a competent employee with one that is less than competent only because of race or gender will also lessen the quality of the work and this ultimately reflects on the overall quality of the business world in the US and abroad. But, this has happened.

                                                              The answer? Encourage employers to return to looking at ability, skill, and desire to work. We cannot legislate everything. But, we can help to capture those times when unfair practices occur and report them. The more that do, the more fair the workplace will be.

                                                              Discourage bullying, grandstanding, and intimidation in the workplace, as well - because these thing do happen with the intent to cause some to leave a workplace.

                                                              Maturity is a virtue.

                                                                Reply#11 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:22 PM EST
                                                                Tax Small BusinessDeleted
                                                                Marshall James

                                                                by the way

                                                                great article!!!!!!

                                                                  Reply#13 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:38 PM EST
                                                                  Tax Small BusinessDeleted
                                                                  Tax Small BusinessDeleted
                                                                  Bad Fish

                                                                  This is clearly an issue that separates those who believe in freedom and equality. We have those that simply want their politically correct card punched by special interest groups and we have those that support the very ideology that wrote all men are created equal. I will not deny there are citizens of this country that are racists and bigots. The problem will never go away completely. We can only continue to educate our children that we as free people must support equality to remain free. We can never allow our Government to sponsor discrimination. The eyes of Government and our law must remain blind to race, creed, religion, sex and sexual preference.

                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                  Reply#16 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:30 PM EST
                                                                  Acapulco Kevin

                                                                  That statement is profound.

                                                                    #16.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:44 PM EST
                                                                    Marshall James

                                                                    very true

                                                                    and he actually goes into the two different thought processes quite a bit in Intellectuals and Society.

                                                                      #16.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:46 PM EST
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      RachaelMM

                                                                      There is no such thing as "reverse" discrimination. Discrimination is discrimination, period.

                                                                        Reply#17 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:07 PM EST
                                                                        Acapulco Kevin

                                                                        When laws are passed that discriminate against people with the intent of favoring another group in the name of equality. That by all definition is reverse discrimination. Hence Affirmative Action.

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #17.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:14 PM EST
                                                                        greck

                                                                        no, Acapulco.

                                                                        white people don't own discrimination. It's not attached to any particular ethnic or racial group.

                                                                        Saying a black person discriminating against whites or whites discriminating against themselves or in favor of anyone else is "reverse discrimination" is like saying Eminem makes "reverse hip-hop" music.

                                                                        -which we know only Missy Elliot has ever actually done successfully with "work it"

                                                                        this is one of those things like saying "irregardles" or "unloosen"

                                                                        the actual aspect of Affirmative Action that I think you really find offensive is the favoritism anyway, not the discrimination. that's the part where the black guy gets the job over the equally or maybe even more qualified white guy.

                                                                        • 4 votes
                                                                        #17.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:35 PM EST
                                                                        Neish1920

                                                                        this is one of those things like saying "irregardles" or "unloosen"

                                                                        Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #17.3 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:07 PM EST
                                                                        wheatfield2

                                                                        Yes, reverse discrimination is alive and well, also. Just look at our Justice department refusing to classify black wrongdoing on whites as a race crime. They refuse to prosecute the Black Panthers, yet pick on a caucasion voter polling group that did no wrong.

                                                                        Federal prosecutor accuses Justice Dept. of reverse racism

                                                                        http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/sep/24/justices-panther-pursuer-testifies-about-reverse-r/


                                                                        The Justice Department supervisor who recommended pursuing a voter intimidation case against members of the New Black Panther Party testified Friday that the department's Civil Rights Division has engaged in reverse racism, refusing to bring charges in voting cases unless the victim is a minority.

                                                                        Our "Post-Racial" or "Most-Racist" President?
                                                                        http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/25788

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #17.4 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 10:43 AM EST
                                                                        RachaelMM

                                                                        You're missing the point, Kevin and wheatfield2 -- it doesn't matter who practices it, or against whom it is aimed -- discrimination is discrimination. If it is opposite of the historically more prevelent discrimination (that is, whites discriminating against blacks), it's still discrimination. The person practicing it, or the person against whom it is practiced doesn't change what it is . . . discrimination is discrimination, "reverse discrimination" is a ridiculous, made up term.

                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                        #17.5 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 11:06 AM EST
                                                                        Neish1920

                                                                        You're missing the point, Kevin and wheatfield2 -- it doesn't matter who practices it, or against whom it is aimed -- discrimination is discrimination. If it is opposite of the historically more prevelent discrimination (that is, whites discriminating against blacks), it's still discrimination. The person practicing it, or the person against whom it is practiced doesn't change what it is . . . discrimination is discrimination, "reverse discrimination" is a ridiculous, made up term.

                                                                        I just felt like this needed to be reiterated.

                                                                        • 4 votes
                                                                        #17.6 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 11:40 AM EST
                                                                        greck

                                                                        Yes, reverse discrimination is alive and well,

                                                                        irregardless, it's not a real term, so I could care less.

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #17.7 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 2:22 PM EST
                                                                        Reply
                                                                        thinking aloud

                                                                        Maybe instead of a confusing series of laws we should just remove the race question from every form we have to fill out. I mean for a government that is supposed to be color blind it seems to care a lot about what color our skin is.

                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                        Reply#18 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:37 PM EST
                                                                        Marshall James

                                                                        and in response to your post...cue one of my favorite quotes..

                                                                        by Ron Paul

                                                                        “Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals . . . By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called “diversity” actually perpetuate racism. Their obsession with racial group identity is inherently racist. . . we should understand that racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and begin thinking in terms of individual liberty.”

                                                                        • 4 votes
                                                                        #18.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:40 PM EST
                                                                        Bad Fish

                                                                        Great quote. Most people don't dig that deep when rationalizing their decision on issues.

                                                                          #18.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:07 PM EST
                                                                          greck

                                                                          the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their obsession with racial group identity is inherently racist. . . we should understand that racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and begin thinking in terms of individual liberty."

                                                                          this is like saying the house won't be clean until we stop looking for where all the dirt is, because, after all, it's the dirt that makes the house dirty.

                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          #18.3 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:11 PM EST
                                                                          Marshall James

                                                                          no its like saying the house wont stay clean until we stop were the dirt is originating from...not reacting to it and stirring up more dust.

                                                                          your analogy falls way short and you are unable to grasp the thought of looking for the cause instead of just reaction.

                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                          #18.4 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:17 PM EST
                                                                          zanilth

                                                                          this is like saying the house won't be clean until we stop looking for where all the dirt is, because, after all, it's the dirt that makes the house dirty.

                                                                          Not quite, especially since comparing a house and dirt to different race groups doesn't even come close.

                                                                          It actually is more like saying "People need to stop thinking of themselves as race based groups, and start thinking for themselves."

                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          #18.5 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:20 PM EST
                                                                          thinking aloud

                                                                          "There is only one color in this world. A shade of sh*t brown."-unnamed drill sergeant in 1991.

                                                                          Essentially what you said, in a compact and brash form.

                                                                            #18.6 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 6:34 PM EST
                                                                            greck

                                                                            no its like saying the house wont stay clean until we stop were the dirt is originating from...not reacting to it and stirring up more dust.

                                                                            so, there's no more white-on-black racism in the house, that's what you're saying? That minorities are just creating racism even though for whites it ended some time ago?

                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                            #18.7 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 6:38 PM EST
                                                                            thinking aloud

                                                                            No, but by constantly pointing out that every is different and has to be treated specially you are not helping racial unity.

                                                                              #18.8 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 7:26 PM EST
                                                                              Plantsmantx

                                                                              "Racial unity", huh? LOL.

                                                                              • 4 votes
                                                                              #18.9 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 9:33 PM EST
                                                                              thinking aloud

                                                                              Artillery taught me all one thing...we're all the same on the inside.

                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                              #18.10 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 11:40 PM EST
                                                                              zanilth

                                                                              Greck- When you concern yourself with JUST one side of the problem, you'll never solve that problem. There is discrimination on ALL sides of the spectrum, and to fix the WHOLE problem, you don't look specifically at one side.

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #18.11 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 9:48 AM EST
                                                                              greck
                                                                              When you concern yourself with JUST one side of the problem, you'll never solve that problem.

                                                                              no argument there, but what people seem to be saying is that the problem is actually gone and all we have to do is learn how to act like it. you certainly won't solve a problem if you don't think it is one, will you?

                                                                                #18.12 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 2:25 PM EST
                                                                                zanilth

                                                                                Meh, I don't necessarily think that was what they were trying to say... I think basically they are saying "Ok, the main part of the problem is past (discrimination isn't as huge of a thing as it was) so now we need to find something that works better in our situation, because this doesn't now." - But then again, that is open to interpretation.

                                                                                  #18.13 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 3:37 PM EST
                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                  not afraid-1148086

                                                                                  AA is inherently wrong. There have been a few posts supporting it, and more supporting the ideology of it yet there never was a time in which it was a good choice.

                                                                                  There is no valid argument to support race/gender as a qualifying factor for anything in business.

                                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                                  Reply#19 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:39 PM EST
                                                                                  greck

                                                                                  There is no valid argument to support race/gender as a qualifying factor for anything in business.

                                                                                  my marketing department wants to market to hispanics because they're the fastest growing segment of the population

                                                                                  my marketing department wants me to quit my "gender neutral" advertising of cosmetics because, well, men just don't wear lipstick as much as women.

                                                                                  I only bought one case of "Afro Sheen" to stock in my store on the Navajo reservation in rural New Mexico, bought fifteen for the one in Urban Atlanta.

                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                  #19.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:52 PM EST
                                                                                  not afraid-1148086

                                                                                  Greck,

                                                                                  You are exactly correct in pointing out the obvious. I expect to see waitresses at Hooters, I expect to see men playing in the NFL, I expect women to model women's clothing and men for men's wear and I expect blacks to advertise for Afro hair supplies.

                                                                                  Beyond the obvious needs that are required to address specific races/genders however, there is no valid argument...

                                                                                  I would like to know of someone who thinks there is one though.

                                                                                    #19.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:24 PM EST
                                                                                    Reply
                                                                                    Soval-1219303

                                                                                    Affirmative Action and Reverse Discrimination are meaningless bogeymen used by conservatives to make attacks on both political and racial grounds, and to stir up controversy with imaginary injustices. Like so many other right-wing taglines, they have no bearing on the reality of the subject they supposedly concern, and perpetuate themselves instead through repeated repetition and embellishment by partisans and pundits who use them as limitless ammunition in their unending war against their political and ideological opponents.

                                                                                    • 4 votes
                                                                                    Reply#20 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 3:45 PM EST
                                                                                    Tax Small BusinessDeleted
                                                                                    Plantsmantx

                                                                                    You're exactly right, Soval.

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #20.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:05 PM EST
                                                                                    Reply
                                                                                    TheyreAllCrooks

                                                                                    I'm a black man and I think the days where AA is needed are pretty much gone...but then again as soon as you end it...the past might rear its ugly head again...

                                                                                    Sorta like those tea people like Rand Paul saying they're for the Civil Rights of all people...but he wouldn't have voted for the Civill Rights Act - which gave my parents a chance to make a way for our family.

                                                                                    Shortly after I graduated from college in 1982 (in the midst of a recession) I had a horrible experience.

                                                                                    I went to every business I came across filing out application after application.

                                                                                    I went to a well known major corporation (who's name I will withold) and filled out an application. After interviewing with the hiring manager who told me I was a great fit for the job and he'd set up a 2nd interview with his boss, the HR Manager told me they would get back to me.

                                                                                    As I was leaving her office I could see from the reflection of the glass in front of me that she was tossing my application into the circular file...that's corporate speak for GARBAGE CAN!

                                                                                    So while I think AA's days are probably past...I'm afraid that ending it will simply lead to a repeat performance of past pains...

                                                                                    If you've never experienced this type of hurt, I really can't even begin to explain it to you.

                                                                                    So I say leave it be.

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #21 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:12 PM EST
                                                                                    Tax Small BusinessDeleted
                                                                                    not afraid-1148086

                                                                                    I sympathize with your experience however requiring that race/gender be a factor in a hiring decision is discriminatory. What the woman did in your situation would have been the same if you were a white man and she threw your application away because of racial hiring quotas.

                                                                                    After high school I really wanted to join the fire department, and I had all the best qualifications but was told that without an ethnic surname, I stood no chance. So yes, I have experienced racism, government mandated racism.

                                                                                    • 4 votes
                                                                                    #21.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:40 PM EST
                                                                                    TheyreAllCrooks


                                                                                    By contrast, I am a white man who finished college in 1976. I experienced discrimination because everybody was required by law to hire women and minorities, even if they were less qualified

                                                                                    I've been in HR for over 20 years and have worked for 3 fortune 250 firms that have AA policy.

                                                                                    AA does not call for quotas...that is the biggest lie ever told.
                                                                                    AA only requires that companies "take action" to hire as diversely as possible.

                                                                                    I have never, ever, in 20 years seen 1 AA candidate hired that was NOT qualified.

                                                                                    I have never hired or been aware of anyone being hired because they were black or a woman or handicapped UNLESS they were qualified AND it was clear that diversity was needed in a particular area.

                                                                                    This is a very familiar complaint by a lot of white people - but the numbers don't pan out...have you seen the black unemployment rate?

                                                                                    It'd probably be much, much higher without some sort of policy in place...I'm just sayin - it is what it is

                                                                                    • 5 votes
                                                                                    #21.3 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:48 PM EST
                                                                                    greck

                                                                                    Race or gender should never be a consideration of employment.

                                                                                    but even if it isn't today, from the moment English settlers came here and began commerce until about a generation ago it was. You don't think there's been a cumulative effect greater and more complex than just this week's paycheck?

                                                                                    here's a perfect example:
                                                                                    You know for sure that your race was the key determining factor because you were told as much, up front and honestly. And actually it wasn't race, it was compliance with the law. without the law, you could always know that your race was never a knock against you. you never had to think about it, and you still don't.

                                                                                    Theyreallcrooks - I'll let you speak for yourself on this one, but generally minorities don't have the luxury of putting race aside in the post-mortem analysis of why they didn't get the job. It almost always is at least a footnote or peripheral consideration.

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #21.4 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 4:49 PM EST
                                                                                    TheyreAllCrooks


                                                                                    Theyreallcrooks - I'll let you speak for yourself on this one, but generally minorities don't have the luxury of putting race aside in the post-mortem analysis of why they didn't get the job. It almost always is at least a footnote or peripheral consideration.

                                                                                    In my entire career there have been 3 instances (that I'm aware of) where being black was a very bad color for me to be!

                                                                                    I will say that the older I get, and having been in HR for over 20 years, the less race matters to me in these issues.

                                                                                    In fact the jobs I didn't get - I didn't want anyway...but interviewed so I could get practice.

                                                                                    I honestly can't remember the last time I heard a black person say they weren't hired because they were black...I think many of us are past that - but the opponents of AA often dig this up so they can get it off their chest I guess...

                                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                                    #21.5 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:02 PM EST
                                                                                    Tax Small BusinessDeleted
                                                                                    Plantsmantx

                                                                                    Companies are required to hire a % of mionorities that reflect the population.

                                                                                    By what statute?

                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                    #21.7 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:38 PM EST
                                                                                    greck

                                                                                    By what statute?

                                                                                    nobody's required, although some federal contracts do require Affirmative Action policies and practices. Nobody's forcing any company to do business with the federal government, though.

                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                    #21.8 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 6:48 PM EST
                                                                                    TheyreAllCrooks


                                                                                    Theyreallcrooks.....calling me a liar doesn't change the facts. Companies are required to hire a % of mionorities that reflect the population. They hire the most qualified minority, but not the most qualified applicant. I don't think you ever worked in HR.

                                                                                    Where did I call you a liar?

                                                                                    Quotas do NOT exist...Republicans have been telling thaT lie for decades...

                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                    #21.9 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 7:14 PM EST
                                                                                    Plantsmantx

                                                                                    By what statute?

                                                                                    nobody's required, although some federal contracts do require Affirmative Action policies and practices. Nobody's forcing any company to do business with the federal government, though.

                                                                                    In other words, there is no statute, right?

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #21.10 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 9:34 PM EST
                                                                                    zanilth

                                                                                    Statute? Maybe not...

                                                                                    Supreme Court cases showing racial quotas were appropriate, and used? Plenty

                                                                                    Check out Griggs vs. Duke Power Company - THAT decision, made in 1971, was just overturned by the Ricci vs. DeStefano case (and if people don't remember that, it is the New Haven Firefighter case.)

                                                                                    See also:

                                                                                    United Steelworkers vs. Weber

                                                                                    Marino vs. Ortiz (this one stuns me, they promoted minorities who had NOT passed the required tests, just so the quota would be met!)

                                                                                    In 1990, the Surpeme Court found that a 10% racial quota for federal contracting was permitted.

                                                                                    The city of Chicago has a racial quota in place that 25% of government construction contracts are assigned to minority contractors... Never mind who will do the best job!

                                                                                    There are numerous cases and precipts showing this going on. So Plantsmantx, TheyreAllCrooks, and others... Care to try the denial again?

                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                    #21.11 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 10:16 AM EST
                                                                                    Neish1920

                                                                                    Are there any SC cases from 2000 to now besides the Firefighter stuff on the east coast?

                                                                                    And why is it that when AA is discussed, MOST people only talk about black folks?

                                                                                    WOMEN are the LARGEST minority group as it consists of women of ALL RACES.......As such, WOMEN are the largest benefactors of the mandate (Title 9 included!, but I think Sarah P missed the memo on that).

                                                                                    Any person that has a daughter that plays sports in college has benefited from AA. A University will cut the mens' wrestling/track/cross country, soccer team in a new york minute to hold onto women's field hockey.......

                                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                                    #21.12 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 10:26 AM EST
                                                                                    zanilth

                                                                                    Neish, the statement was that there weren't any racial quotas. My post (and SC cases) go to show that there were and are. The Chicago quota is still in effect.

                                                                                    I can agree with the thought process behind the women being the largest benefactors, however I wouldn't necessarily say that is the case unless further documentation is produced. I don't believe that should be grouped into the same situation though, but that is based on my opinion that not all similar problems have the same solution.

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #21.13 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 11:36 AM EST
                                                                                    Plantsmantx

                                                                                    I don't believe that should be grouped into the same situation though,

                                                                                    Why not?

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #21.14 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 11:39 AM EST
                                                                                    Neish1920

                                                                                    @ Zanlith,

                                                                                    Why not? You can look on up the department of labor website and see the pay difference between men and women. You can also look and see the difference in wages for "women's work" vs "men's work"......@ man building trucks @ the Ford plant makes more than a nurse. WHY is that? Dont you think the nursing profession is more important then building trucks, and more dangerous because of the exposure to possibly crazy patients, illnesses and disease?

                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                    #21.15 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 11:46 AM EST
                                                                                    zanilth

                                                                                    Your example was referring to sports teams Neish, hence what I was referring to. 22.4 explains a little further with that specific thought process. Sorry I didn't clarify that specifically.

                                                                                    As to the wage issue, why is it that 'professional entertainers' such as football players and such get such a high salary, whereas those responsible for the wellbeing and education of EVERYONE in our society make so low? Specifically to your question in regards to the ford truck worker making more than a nurse, what are their specific positions? How long have they been there? As you can see, I look for the contributing factors and they are not really listed on most websites (as they are trying to show a disparity...) Answer that question, and you'll probably have your answer. My answer is 'priorities.'

                                                                                    Plantsmantx, do you have anything in regards to the quotas I showed that you have vehemently denied existance of?

                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                    #21.16 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 12:23 PM EST
                                                                                    Neish1920

                                                                                    @ Zanlith,

                                                                                    In KC, a lineman will start @ $25.00 an hour, a nurse $23. The Lineman only has to have a HS Diploma or GED and the nurse (RN) has to have that AND, an AA degree, pass board exams and be registered. The linemen job is Union, so very rarely do they get paid for performance, but tenure. Nurses are P4P. If a nurse comes to work under the influenece, she will be fired, if a linemen does it, he gets sent to rehab....

                                                                                      #21.17 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:30 PM EST
                                                                                      zanilth

                                                                                      So in that case, MOST of the problem is due to a union issue. How can you credit that to discrimination on any part of either employers?

                                                                                        #21.18 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:36 PM EST
                                                                                        Neish1920

                                                                                        Im not saying either employer is discriminating. What I am saying is that men and women still dont get paid the same even when the assumed risks, and education are similar.

                                                                                        This is an American Cultural issue, not necessarily employer based.

                                                                                        As for Dwayne Bowe of the chiefs getting paid more than a Teacher @ a local high school, teachers are paid based on taxes. Dwayne is paid based on the money he and the team bring to the orgnization. For-profit vs non-profit ( I dont think its right @ all.).....But I do know that tax payers voted on a sales tax to help build the new chiefs stadium, but declined one that would help repair facilities in the surrounding school districts. I guess grandma figures since she has no more kids in the district, she doesnt need to pay any more taxes than she already is, and is more likely to go to a Chiefs game. Although the Chiefs have donated the funds to put turf in all the football fields in the area..so that is an improvement.

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        #21.19 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:49 PM EST
                                                                                        zanilth

                                                                                        Your inflection of the problem being an American cultural issue is, in my opinion, a majority of the entire problem we are discussing (to include the sports team issue as well.) Of course, the solution to that problem most people don't like... So I won't mention it.

                                                                                        As to the pay similarity issue, I think that has more to do with the field of work (in similarity to the example I used) than simple inequality.

                                                                                        The sports star doesn't himself bring any money to the team... That is all done by sales. Tickets, fees, food, etc. all are the 'huge' money making aspect of the business. They get away with charging an inordinate amount for this stuff, which in turn gives them the money to spend in this fashion. So basically, pay is based on the amount of income present.

                                                                                        That could be applied to the nurse vs. auto worker issue as well. But then you have greedy CEOs who want more money, and hire for less and pay less (which isn't based on the female or male employee breakdown, but on the greed of the CEO....) It goes further and further into detail. This is why I won't necessarily agree one way or the other as far as discrimination of wages based on sex... There are too many things to take into account that I do not have access to. The ones who DO have access generally try to skew the numbers to say one thing or another, and usually end up putting out horribly inaccurate numbers....

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        #21.20 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 3:48 PM EST
                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                        SickofTreasonWithinDeleted
                                                                                        SickofTreasonWithinDeleted
                                                                                        Tax Small BusinessDeleted
                                                                                        Marshall James

                                                                                        people should also look at how minimum wage has destroyed the black race....how after its implementation the arrest rate for black teenage males went through the roof as small business owners could not afford to hire as many teenage workers anymore.

                                                                                        another unintended consquence to good intentions.

                                                                                        whatever the government touches turns to @!$%# people.

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        Reply#25 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:22 PM EST
                                                                                        LTKiwi

                                                                                        I'll have to admit, I read less than half of the comments because it started to look like an infomercial for that Sowell fella. That being said...

                                                                                        I'm a white guy in his early 30's. In my life right now the only form of discrimination I'm facing is as I'm trying to get a bartender/server job.

                                                                                        I can't remember how many times I've been told;

                                                                                        "We don't hire guys"

                                                                                        Tell me, how is that any different from saying "We don't hire blacks" or "We don't hire jews"?

                                                                                        Answer: It is absolutely no different.

                                                                                        Yet, 95% of the bars in Denver are allowed to get away with sexual discrimination. Why?

                                                                                        I would love a great explanation, because this situation is really angering me.

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        Reply#26 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:42 PM EST
                                                                                        Neish1920

                                                                                        Im glad you brought this up!!!!!

                                                                                        Title 9 adds to that too. @ my old college, they cut the mens' track team in favor of women's field hockey. Nevermind the guys had more conference championship teams, and individuals as well as NCAA All Americans....and the highest GPA of all the mens' team on campus. I felt that the cuts should be made based on team performance and they got the @!$%#ty end of the stick IMO>

                                                                                          #26.1 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 10:36 AM EST
                                                                                          I'm Ringo

                                                                                          At a college back home, they lost a men's team that was popular and making a profit for the school and got a women's team that drained money while struggling to even get enough players.

                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                          #26.2 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 10:44 AM EST
                                                                                          RachaelMM

                                                                                          I felt that the cuts should be made based on team performance and they got the @!$%#ty end of the stick IMO

                                                                                          I agree with you in only the most theoretical way. If they were permitted to cut athletic teams based purely on performance -- and were allowed to make revenue-generating into account -- all women's sports teams (except maybe the UConn women's basketball team) would be gone in a second.

                                                                                            #26.3 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 11:16 AM EST
                                                                                            zanilth

                                                                                            How about making it truly equal? For those that want a basketball team, have BOTH, that BOTH remain or BOTH are cut?

                                                                                            If there aren't enough players, then the team doesn't participate in the league (obviously) but the statement can't be made that the opportunity wasn't available.

                                                                                            Personally, I think there will always be discrimination in the world. There will always be choices to make between two or more entities, and whatever the factor used to decide will be a form of discrimination. It is up to us as individuals to not misuse this to discriminate against others unjustly. The problem has never been with companies, or businesses... It has always been with individuals who were in the position to discriminate.

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #26.4 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 11:39 AM EST
                                                                                            Neish1920

                                                                                            @ Rachel, I mean Athletic performance. By shear nature of the sport, you cant have as many home track meets as you can basketball games.

                                                                                            BUT if the farthest the mens track team travels is 500 miles a way, vs 2000 miles for womens field hockey (its not that popular in the midwest so they often have to travel to the east or west coast from southwest Missouri), AND the mens team has better athletic performance @ conference, regional and national leves, then one would think more money is saved keeping mens track over field hockey.

                                                                                            @ LTKiwi- yes, that is what happened to our mens team.

                                                                                              #26.5 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 11:51 AM EST
                                                                                              Reply
                                                                                              Plantsmantx

                                                                                              ...how after its implementation the arrest rate for black teenage males went through the roof as small business owners could not afford to hire as many teenage workers anymore.

                                                                                              Give us a date for "its implementation", and show us that the arrest rate for black teen-aged males "went through the roof" immediately afterward.

                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                              Reply#27 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:44 PM EST
                                                                                              Marshall James

                                                                                              this is common sense and walter williams did a documentary on this....but this took about 5 seconds to find....just the last decade though.

                                                                                              funny how this works doesnt it??? even with AA and CRA look at the rates and how they have increased.

                                                                                              hmmmmmmmmm

                                                                                              http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574402820278669840.html

                                                                                                #27.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:49 PM EST
                                                                                                Plantsmantx

                                                                                                One more time... give us a date for the implementation of the minimum wage (not just a given increase in it), and show us that the arrest rate for black teen males "went through the roof" immediately afterward.

                                                                                                his is common sense and walter williams did a documentary on this....but this took about 5 seconds to find....just the last decade though.

                                                                                                That article doesn't say anything about arrest or incarceration rates.

                                                                                                funny how this works doesnt it??? even with AA and CRA look at the rates and how they have increased.

                                                                                                The rates of...what?

                                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                                #27.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:58 PM EST
                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                Marshall James

                                                                                                speaking of walter williams

                                                                                                http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/opinion/walter-williams/3316--minimum-wage-cruelty

                                                                                                and walter williams is right

                                                                                                minimum wage is the most effective tool for the racists.

                                                                                                those who support it are supporting a racist policy.

                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                Reply#28 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:50 PM EST
                                                                                                Plantsmantx

                                                                                                minimum wage is the most effective tool for the racists.

                                                                                                Yeah, along with the estate tax, right?:)

                                                                                                  #28.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:58 PM EST
                                                                                                  Marshall James

                                                                                                  it has been proven by many researchers that it has hurt black teenagers the most resulting in higher incarceration rates.

                                                                                                  what do teenagers do when they are bored???

                                                                                                  freedom is the only way plant

                                                                                                  reject slavery....embrace freedom...dont be afraid.

                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                  #28.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 6:02 PM EST
                                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                                  Marshall James

                                                                                                  http://www.jstor.org/pss/1810006

                                                                                                  there you go plant

                                                                                                  some more info for you. and although this article downplays the importance they still recognize it...it is still very interesting that prior to minimum wage and CRA black teenage jobs was at 50% in such a racist country as this one...but once the government got involved to make things equal the employment rate fell like a rock.

                                                                                                  lol

                                                                                                  keep drinking the left wing koolaid my fellow american.

                                                                                                  keep drinking.

                                                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                                                  Reply#29 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 5:56 PM EST
                                                                                                  Marshall James

                                                                                                  more

                                                                                                  http://www.house.gov/jec/cost-gov/regs/minimum/50years.htm

                                                                                                    Reply#30 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 6:01 PM EST
                                                                                                    Plantsmantx

                                                                                                    One more time... give us a date for the implementation of the minimum wage (not just a given increase in it), and show us that the arrest rate for black teen males "went through the roof" immediately afterward.

                                                                                                    his is common sense and walter williams did a documentary on this....but this took about 5 seconds to find....just the last decade though.

                                                                                                    That article doesn't say anything about arrest or incarceration rates.

                                                                                                    funny how this works doesnt it??? even with AA and CRA look at the rates and how they have increased.

                                                                                                    The rates of...what?

                                                                                                    You're avoiding that, aren't you? Come on- give us the correlation between the date of the implementation of the minimum wage, and the "going through the roof" of the black male teen "arrest rate". None...I repeat, none of the links you've pasted show that. Not one.

                                                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                                                    #30.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 6:07 PM EST
                                                                                                    Marshall James

                                                                                                    plant

                                                                                                    you are so into being a slave you are blinded.

                                                                                                    you are afraid of freedom and dont want to make choice for yourself.

                                                                                                    you dont have faith in yourself and are afraid. yea I got this.

                                                                                                    but you may be a lost cause but your children dont need to be slaves. the government shouldnt be our masters.

                                                                                                    we live on an extra big plantation now. the elite are our masters and they use the government to implement social programs to keep us in line.

                                                                                                    there is so much correlation between the two its ridiculous and you know it. to not give it one bit of credibility or thought shows just how far you are gone.

                                                                                                    you obviously dont have an individualist bone in your body and live by the collective mentality of being a slave.

                                                                                                    I reject slavery and want freedom.

                                                                                                    sorry you do not.

                                                                                                    you be the good lil boy

                                                                                                    I will be the boy who rejects the status quo...and rejects authority and stands up for individual rights.

                                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                                    #30.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 6:15 PM EST
                                                                                                    Plantsmantx

                                                                                                    LOL. You just pulled that supposed correlation between the implementation of the minimum wage and the "arrest rates" of teen-aged black males out of an...orifice, didn't you? You must be used to saying these kinds of things to people and not having them challenge you on them, right?:) You do know that you come off like a mental patient who accosts people on the street, don't you?:)

                                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                                    #30.3 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 6:20 PM EST
                                                                                                    Marshall James

                                                                                                    and you come off as what is a person who is a slave but doesnt have the balls or mentality to want freedom and since they get three meals and a cot from their master do not want to cause any problems.

                                                                                                    • 4 votes
                                                                                                    #30.4 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 6:44 PM EST
                                                                                                    Head-Negro

                                                                                                    You must be used to saying these kinds of things to people and not having them challenge you on them, right?:) You do know that you come off like a mental patient who accosts people on the street, don't you?:)

                                                                                                    thanks Plant

                                                                                                    sometimes I will sit and read and not say anything but you made my day with that one

                                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                                    #30.5 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 6:57 PM EST
                                                                                                    Marshall James

                                                                                                    the limited mentality that denies the existence of unintended consequences just floors me.

                                                                                                    not everything can be measured.

                                                                                                    example is how gore admitted lying about ethanol.

                                                                                                    there are people starving in this world. we are using food to make fuel. taking food from the mouths of people who are starving will lead to deaths.

                                                                                                    how many will and can never be counted...is it 1?? 100?? 100,000?? we will never know. to say there are none would be pure ignorance. so it does exist it just cannot be measured accurately

                                                                                                    the argument of plant and headnegro which should be more followingnegro are that of people who deny their very existence. I cannot find proof online that they actually exist therefore they must not.....doesnt matter if I talk with them.....it is not proof...without a doubt proof that they are real people.

                                                                                                    ridiculous.

                                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                                    #30.6 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 7:36 PM EST
                                                                                                    Plantsmantx

                                                                                                    That's exactly what it's like, HN. Not only is it coming across like some deranged person who accosts people on the street, there's the matter of the dishonesty. It's as if they think they can say anything, without any regard to the truth, and you're supposed to accept it as gospel, because as a black person, that's your place in life. The hell it is.

                                                                                                    I cannot find proof online that they actually exist therefore they must not.

                                                                                                    You made a very specific claim. You said that arrests of teen black males "skyrocketed" immediately after the implementation of the minimum wage. You have the most comprehensive information source in the history of mankind at your fingertips. Yes, I do expect you to come up with documented proof of that very specific claim.

                                                                                                    • 4 votes
                                                                                                    #30.7 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 9:52 PM EST
                                                                                                    Reply
                                                                                                    betty j.

                                                                                                    I say screw all of you who think there is no discrimination of minorities and females in this country. Also, Latinos, gays, lesbians, and anyone else who has a disability or disformity. You are all products of your material world and skinny, cocaine snorting 80's some bigots. Where's the party? Blacks only wanted if they provide the drugs. Girls only wanted if they are skinny, fun, and never ever cry. Get real. Life is not like this at all. Especially, if you try to live a decent life. Some of the kindest people I know have been victims of discrimination in the workplace and out of it.

                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                    Reply#31 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 8:34 PM EST
                                                                                                    I'm Ringo

                                                                                                    Of course there is discrimination...there is discrimination against women, men, 'whites', 'blacks', 'yellows', 'reds', 'browns', Muslims, Catholics, Wiccans, etc. The solution is not to add more of it.

                                                                                                      #31.1 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 8:45 PM EST
                                                                                                      Marshall James

                                                                                                      i have been the victim of workplace discrimination and I can proudly say you are not my friend.

                                                                                                      a bit bitter are we??? what you get dumped for a skinny girl???

                                                                                                      lol the issues you have clearly came out in your post.

                                                                                                      may you find peace in your life and stop blaming others for your misfortunes. oh and more importantly...stop trying to force others to live the way you think they should live.

                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                      #31.2 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 8:46 PM EST
                                                                                                      Acapulco Kevin

                                                                                                      I think you all make good points. We all have our experiences to reflect on. Diversity makes good debate.

                                                                                                      I do think Affirmative Action has served it's purpose and is near retirement. I have lived through the years it was needed. Now everyone is treated the same. It is up to the minority communities to rise to the challenge like everyone else.

                                                                                                        #31.3 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 8:57 PM EST
                                                                                                        Marshall James

                                                                                                        and give up the cashcow of perpetual victimhood???

                                                                                                        lol as you can see by plant and headnegros posts...that isnt about to happen when the state has successfully conviinced minorities that they are victims and only the state can protect them and that the they need to give more power to the state so the state can protect them even more....and give more power to the state so the state can make things even.

                                                                                                        altough we all know things have not gotten more even.

                                                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                                                        #31.4 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 9:16 PM EST
                                                                                                        betty j.

                                                                                                        That is a bold face lie. We are not all treated the same. Discrimination rears its ugly head in whatever we do in life.

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        #31.5 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 9:17 PM EST
                                                                                                        Marshall James

                                                                                                        betty

                                                                                                        no my sister.....there is no rampant discrimination.....with a free market system it is not feasible. it makes no sense..

                                                                                                        why cut out half your income??? corporations want to make money and they dont want to hire an idiot based on race so they lose money...if a purple half man half woman is the best person they will hire him/her to make them rich.

                                                                                                        of course we dont have that system anymore because we do not have freedom as everyone thinks they have the moral authority to tell others how they should live their lives.

                                                                                                        peace.....and how was I a liar??? my last post was actually quite correct.

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        #31.6 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 9:20 PM EST
                                                                                                        betty j.

                                                                                                        Sorry James, I was referring to 31.3 when he or she says now we are all treated the same. That is a lie. Even blond shelter dogs are adopted more frequently than black dogs, and the blonds get more attention.

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        #31.7 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 9:30 PM EST
                                                                                                        Plantsmantx

                                                                                                        Now everyone is treated the same. It is up to the minority communities to rise to the challenge like everyone else.

                                                                                                        When people face employment discrimination because they have "black names", and black men with no police record are looked at on the same level with whites with prison records, everyone isn't being treated the same. As far as "rising to the challenge" goes, the old saying "You have to be twice as good to get half as far" still holds true in too, too many instances. That said, I think that black people should "rise to the challenge", although I'm sure we disagree on how blacks should do that.

                                                                                                        • 5 votes
                                                                                                        #31.8 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 9:41 PM EST
                                                                                                        Neish1920

                                                                                                        Sorry James, I was referring to 31.3 when he or she says now we are all treated the same. That is a lie. Even blond shelter dogs are adopted more frequently than black dogs, and the blonds get more attention.

                                                                                                        Yes ma'am you are right!!!!!!!!

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        #31.9 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 10:42 AM EST
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