Mexico and National Security Threat to USA

Kevin,,,you must have been sleeping for the last few days, as an American was shot and killed on Falcon Lake in Texas by Mexican Terrorist.

As far as a threat to American citizens and National Security, well more Americans have bee killed by Illegals since 911 than died in the attack on the World Trade Centers,,,,I'm say that defiantly classifies the Illegals as Terrorists ! Not to mention the damage that the Illegals have done to our Health Care system, the over crowding of Our Schools taking away from the Education money that was meant for American children.

So I think the answer to "is Mexico a threat to American Security" would have to be a Big Yes !

,I'm say that defiantly classifies the Illegals as Terrorists

Then you need to learn what that word means. Criminals don't become terrorists just because you don't like their ethnicity or nationality. More Americans are killed by car accidents, every year, than by 9/11 and both wars combined. Yup--we have illegal aliens in the country. Yup--some of them are criminals, just like some of us. Yup--some of them are even murders, just like some of us. And just like everybody everywhere else, too. It's got nothing to do with them being illegal aliens.

And if it's the drug cartels you're afraid of, then your enemies aren't the cartels--they're the people that keep the cartels in business (ie, American consumers). That, or you could recognize that it might have something to do with our failed drug policies and legislation, but either way.

Yup--we have illegal aliens in the country. Yup--some of them are criminals,

actually, you need to learn what ILLEGAL means. anybody here illegally is breaking our immigration laws. it doesn't matter what color they are, or their ethnicity, ALL people here illegally are criminals, not just "some."

actually, you need to learn what ILLEGAL means. anybody here illegally is breaking our immigration laws.

And anyone who drives over 65 on the freeway is breaking our speed limit laws. Does that make every single person that's ever driven a criminal?

Or are you just, you know... being reactionary?

there's a major difference between entering and staying in a country illegally and breaking the speed limit. amazing you can't see that.

Of course I can see that: In one, you cross an imaginary line. In the other, you push slightly harder on the gas pedal. Since, in neither instance, do you directly cause harm to another human being, it's ridiculous to claim that one qualifies someone as a "criminal" while the other is "just part of what we do."

you cross an imaginary line

nations boundaries are just "imaginary line"s? i bet the many men and women who have died protecting their nation would scoff at the idea of it being a mere "imaginary line."

in neither instance, do you directly cause harm to another human being

tell that to people who lost employment because illegals will work for much less. tell that to the families and friends of the many people killed by illegals. they'll vehemently disagree.

it's ridiculous to claim that one qualifies someone as a "criminal"

so our immigration laws are simply suggestions? what other laws would you like to turn into a mere suggestion?

Grayson S #1.6,,,

"you need to learn what that word means. Criminals don't become terrorists just because you don't like their ethnicity or nationality."

Well lets see if Illegals measure up to my claim. below is from Wikipedia,

"Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for a religious, political or ideological goal, deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians), and are committed by non-government agencies."

Illegals have both a "political and ideological goal" in the act of invading a Sovereign Nation and to seek to change our Laws. They kill "Non-Combantants" (Civilans) in the Country that they by their own choice invaded during the commision of their crimes.

They seek to create "Fear" in the American public by their actions and their Statements;

LaRaza (The Race) their founder said and I give you his quote founder of La Raza Jose Angel Gutierrez,,,,"We have got to eliminate the gringo ... if worst comes to worst, we have got to kill him."

Yeah I think I got it right when I used the word "Terrorist" !

nations boundaries are just "imaginary line"s?

Yes.

i bet the many men and women who have died protecting their nation would scoff at the idea of it being a mere "imaginary line."

They'd be wrong but, since the people you're talking about are dead, I actually feel pretty confident that they don't have anything to say on the subject one way or another.

What is it that you think makes up national borders? Did you think it was connected to the Earth's magnetic field? That there were ley-lines of power? That there are special Border Trees that only grow along god's intended demarcations of national boundaries?

tell that to people who lost employment because illegals will work for much less. they'll vehemently disagree.

I will, as soon as I meet someone who is angry that he didn't get that job picking tomatoes for two bucks an hour.

tell that to the families and friends of the many people killed by illegals.

Why do you think that the nationality of a murderer has influence over how I feel towards the family of murder victims?

Your attempts to appeal to emotions are non-rational and have more to do with your hang-ups than they do with anything else. The murder count would go down without illegal aliens only because the population of the nation would go down. The murder rate, however, would not change at all.

so our immigration laws are simply suggestions? what other laws would you like to turn into a mere suggestion?

I wouldn't say that they're suggestions. I would say that they are safeguards. Just as when a person is driving at 66 in a 65 zone we would think any police officer who ticketed them to be a ridiculous buffoon, so, too, is anyone running around trying to figure out which janitors were and weren't born in the right place to be cleaning my toilet, also a buffoon.

Illegals have both a "political and ideological goal" in the act of invading a Sovereign Nation and to seek to change our Laws.

That's a load of crap--They're trying to earn money, just like the rest of us. Your being afraid of something that you perceive as "other" no more makes them terrorists than it makes the sun a terrorist for going down at night and frightening little children when it's dark outside.

LaRaza (The Race) their founder said and I give you his quote founder of La Raza Jose Angel Gutierre

It's actually the RUP, first off. There are a number of organizations that go by the moniker La Raza, but the one that you're referring to is the Raza Unida Party. And José Angel Gutiérrez is an American citizen, Army veteran and college professor--not a terrorist.

Please learn, then speak.

What is terrifying, Bill, is your abject ignorance and xenophobia. Your claim that more people have been murdered by "illegal" aliens than died on 911 is a lie. Got proof? (Other than some racist org like CAIR). The same day that this man was murdered by unknown persons, hundreds of Americans were killed by their fellow Americans. The real terrorist threat is from American Citizens, not from undocumented aliens. You do know, don't you, that there were not headless bodies in the desert, right? Or are they part of the thousands of fantasy murder victims.

gatoralum,,get off your Race thing nobody is buying that garbage anymore .

What is it that you think makes up national borders? Did you think it was connected to the Earth's magnetic field? That there were ley-lines of power? That there are special Border Trees that only grow along god's intended demarcations of national boundaries?

ok, well, maybe someday throngs of people invade your space, whether it is property, or a simple apartment. afterall, boundaries are just "imaginary lines." i'm sure you won't mind.

I will, as soon as I meet someone who is angry that he didn't get that job picking tomatoes for two bucks an hour.

if you think the only jobs illegals do is pick fruit and vegetables, you are mentally challenged.

Why do you think that the nationality of a murderer has influence over how I feel towards the family of murder victims?

you're missing the point. if the illegal respected our sovereignty and our laws, they would not have been here in the first place. therefore, there would be no victims of said illegal. example, the nun in virginia killed by an illegal who was driving drunk. if that illegal obeyed and respected our laws, he wouldn't have been here. that nun would be alive today. there are many more stories just like this.

The murder count would go down without illegal aliens only because the population of the nation would go down. The murder rate, however, would not change at all.

i never said the murder rate would go down. you're making @!$%# up. now, wouldn't a lower murder count be nice? wouldn't a lower death by drunk driving count be nice? point is, many Americans would be alive today if illegals respected and obeyed our laws and stayed out.

I wouldn't say that they're suggestions.

bull@!$%#. by allowing tens of millions of people to openly and defiantly break our immigration laws, you reduce the power of laws to mere suggestions. once here, many of break identity theft laws. but that's ok because we're just being paranoid? bull@!$%#.

Bill, you must have bought a lot or garbage in your day as that seems to be all that you are capable of posting. I called you on your lie and you have no response? Still out there trolling the KKK websites looking from proof of your claim of over three thousand murdered by undocumented aliens? You just need to embrace your bigotry. It obviously defines you. Let me ask you, what was the ethnic background of the man who killed two and wounded three in Gainesville Florida. How about the two young men shot dead outside Pittsburgh this week. Do you know the nationality of any of the killers of the yesterday. How about the nationality of any of the murders of the more than 15000 murder victims in 2009? No answer. But you do know the ethnicity of the unidentified killers of one man in Texas, huh? Does the word anecdotal mean anything to you. Do you know the difference between anecdotal evidence and real evidence? Here is an example. If I were to conclude that everyone in Arizona with the name Bill was a xenophobe simply because you are, that would be me using anecdotal evidence to prove something. Pretty stupid, right? Now real evidence would be the racist untrue things you post on here. That is proof that you have views about people of hispanic descent that would suggest that you view the entire ethnic group as being somehow less than the group to which you belong. Understand? Good.

ok, well, maybe someday throngs of people invade your space, whether it is property, or a simple apartment. afterall, boundaries are just "imaginary lines." i'm sure you won't mind.

I would, actually. I would not, however, pretend that "my property" was anything more than something that had been made up. It is not a fact of the thing itself--it is an attribute that I apply to it.

if you think the only jobs illegals do is pick fruit and vegetables, you are mentally challenged.

I think that they're also maids, janitors, day care, street-cart vendors, dairy farm workers, construction workers and many, many, other people that work right next to you, every single day, if you live anywhere near where I do.

you're missing the point. if the illegal respected our sovereignty and our laws, they would not have been here in the first place.

No, you're missing the point: if there were zero illegal aliens in the country, the murder rate would not change. Exactly the same proportion of people would still get murdered, every year. The number of incidents would only go down because our population would drop by 10-20 million. It's fairly simple math.

i never said the murder rate would go down. you're making @!$%# up.

I never said you did. What I was pointing out is that you don't seem to understand that the murderers' nationality is not relevant.

now, wouldn't a lower murder count be nice?

No, a lower murder rate would. A lower murder count, without a lower murder rate, simply means that your population has decreased--not that fewer of you are getting killed.

Can I ask what state you're from? I know that, in California, you are required to pass a class on statistics to obtain a college degree. I'm just curious whether you ever took such a course, since this seems to be confusing to you.

point is, many Americans would be alive today if illegals respected and obeyed our laws.

And my point is that the exact same number of people would be alive, and their nationality isn't something that I get hung up on.

by allowing tens of millions of people to openly and defiantly break our immigration laws, you reduce the power of laws to mere suggestions.

If you are actually confused enough about jurisprudence to believe that to be true, then I suggest that you perform the following experiment: drive past a police officer at one mile-per-hour over the speed limit. Then, drive past a second police officer at forty miles-per-hour over the speed limit. Then tell the second police officer that he can't write you a ticket (or impound your vehicle), because the first police officer relegated speed-limit laws to the realm of mere suggestions.

Please try it, and get back to us with your conclusion about whether or not your theory on police enforcement has any basis in reality or is... you know... total nonsense.

No, you're missing the point: if there were zero illegal aliens in the country, the murder rate would not change.

can you read? do you comprehend what you read? following is a quote from my post 1.12.

i never said the murder rate would go down. you're making @!$%# up. now, wouldn't a lower murder count be nice? wouldn't a lower death by drunk driving count be nice? point is, many Americans would be alive today if illegals respected and obeyed our laws and stayed out.

do you understand the difference between rate and count?

. What I was pointing out is that you don't seem to understand that the murderers' nationality is not relevant.

from what post did i say a murderers nationality is relevant in any way?

And my point is that the exact same number of people would be alive, and their nationality isn't something that I get hung up on.

apparently it is. you're the one bringing up nationality, not me.

You seem to be having serious trouble comprehending my rather simple point.

If the murder rate does not change, that does not mean that fewer people are getting murdered. It just means that the counts not in our population are occurring in a different population and, as someone who doesn't like it when people get murdered, saying "well, it'll be fewer people that look like you who get offed" does not come anywhere close to solving anything.

Are you being obtuse, or are you having reading-comprehension problems?

My rather straightforward point is that: if you are not talking about ways in which to decrease the murder rate, you are not offering any solutions. You are simply drumming up reasons to hate other people. Want to talk about decreasing murder counts? Here's an idea: let's expel everyone but three people from the country. I guarantee you that we could keep the national murder count under 4. Would that qualify as improvement in the situation?

Your assumption that crime will fall at the same rate, simply due to fewer people, is illogical.

If one is willing to commit a crime to get here, there is some logic to saying that the person involved is also willing to disregard other laws.

Would social security ID theft reduce at the same rate were all illegal residents simultaneously booted out of the country? No. There are adjunct crimes committed in greater number by those who were willing to risk breaking the law in the first place.

Speeding is not a crime of equal caliber. Inattention can contribute as much as disregard. The analogy doesn't even correlate to the scenario of illegal immigration.

To say that other crimes would reduce at the same rate, simply by a lowered population count, is simply not true.

Your assumption that crime will fall at the same rate, simply due to fewer people, is illogical.

My assumption is based on the statistics that show that illegal aliens do not commit more crimes than American citizens. Go look them up, if you're interested.

If one is willing to commit a crime to get here, there is some logic to saying that the person involved is also willing to disregard other laws.

Yes, there is. It's called inferential logic. In particular, the kind of logic that you're appealing to is a slippery slope fallacy. However, it is no more logical to claim that someone who crossed a border illegally is likely to commit future crimes than it is likely that someone who violates the speed limit is likely to commit future crimes.

Would social security ID theft reduce at the same rate were all illegal residents simultaneously booted out of the country?

Just as a side-note, every study conducted (except by an SPLC designated hate-group called FAIR) concludes that illegal aliens actually benefit our social security system by using false numbers and, then, never collecting a return on them.

Speeding is not a crime of equal caliber. Inattention can contribute as much as disregard. The analogy doesn't even correlate to the scenario of illegal immigration.

So you'd prefer I went with j-walking? Or maybe that I specify, in the analogy, only drivers who willfully drive above the speed limit?

To say that other crimes would reduce at the same rate, simply by a lowered population count, is simply not true.

Wrong. Go look it up if you're interested.

you're the one that doesn't seen to get a simple, elemental point. by taking a rather large segment (12 to 25 million) of people out of our society who have no right to be here, the sheer numbers of deaths by drunk driving or other means is reduced. i'm not talking rate, i'm talking count. isn't having a lower death count a good thing?

let's say there is a nation with a population of 1000 people. by means of illegal immigration, the population doubles. before the population doubled, the murder rate was 8%. after the wave of illegal immigration, the rate stayed the same. now, what is larger, 8% of 1000 or 8% of 2000?

i don't know how to make it any more elemental for you. if you don't understand this, you will never get it.

i don't know how to make it any more elemental for you. if you don't understand this, you will never get it.

You aren't even thinking about it, so I'm not sure how you could make it clear. Again: I suggest that we reduce the population of the USA to 3. Kick everyone else out. Would you count that as an improvement, considering the significant drop it would cause in the number of murders committed?

Or are you... you know... not addressing, in any way, shape or form, problems of murder rates and driving accidents and, instead, simply thinking up reasons to hate people?

A lower count is not a good thing. It is not even a meaningful thing. It is not progress, and it does not address any problems, what-so-ever. Only changes in rates qualify as an improvement.

Wrong. Go look it up if you're interested.

You made the claim. Provide the evidence, from an unbiased source, if it exists.

Your premise is that illegal immigrants breaking the law is no big deal. Belittling the crime to that of speeding or jaywalking further supports that premise.

Your premise is that illegal immigrants breaking the law is no big deal.

Yes--my point is that when someone comes and take a job that Americans won't do, that Americans want to have done, it is no big deal that they got here illegally.

That absolutely is my premise. I cannot possibly state, clearly enough that, in my mind, it is no bigger of a deal than j-walking.

What is it you thought you were calling me out on? Did you think I wouldn't be perfectly happy admitting that? I'd been basing my analogies on it this entire time.

You made the claim. Provide the evidence, from an unbiased source, if it exists.

Nice weasel words you tried to sneak in there. But no--I'm not your civics teacher. Learn to google, if you're interested.

But you have a way cool picture on your profile, Grayson. Where is that?

A lower count is not a good thing.

you'd think so if a lower death rate spared one of your family members. assuming they like you.

It is not a crime to be here without documentation. Understand? Those that are here do not commit crime at a greater rate than those here legally, citizens or legal residents. I would prefer that law enforcement resources are directed towards people who commit crimes that actually hurt people, regardless of where those criminals come from; regardless of the color of their skin; regardless of their surname and regardless of what language they speak.

Nice weasel words you tried to sneak in there. But no--I'm not your civics teacher. Learn to google, if you're interested.

You can't provide statistics that don't exist. So projecting weasel-ness on to me is nothing short of grade-school antics which you well know.

I prefer the big picture, examining all contributions to a scenario. You don't. Which I see as illogical.

But your picture is still cool.

But you have a way cool picture on your profile, Grayson. Where is that?

Thanks. It's Mount Whitney in January, overlooking the Mojave Desert.

you'd think so if a lower death rate spared one of your family members. assuming they like you.

You mean count, not rate. And trying to hinge your argument on an emotional appeal is ridiculous.

If you insist on sticking with your claim that it's a good thing, then tell me: why wouldn't it be better to kick all but 3 people out of the country? Death counts would drop to practically zero, immediately. .

So is it a good thing, or a totally irrelevant one that has nothing to do with anything except the fact that you don't like a particular group of people and, failing logic or a good argument, you are trying to get people t agree with you by making emotional appeals and insinuating that they are not as good a person as you are, if they don't think that it's just as bad when Mexicans get murdered as it is when Americans do?

You can't provide statistics that don't exist. So projecting weasel-ness on to me is nothing short of grade-school antics which you well know.

No, I just recognize that you're trying to drag me into a debate over sources and, if I get into one more argument by someone trying to defend the claims of FAIR (the only group whose statistics disagree with my claim, which is a white supremacist organization whose so-called statistics are widely touted by every conservative magazine, which never attributes the statistics to FAIR, but rather to another source of another source and three layers later gets back to a group that advocates eugenics against non-whites), I'm going to punch someone in the throat.

It's an argument I'm sick of having, because way too many people don't understand that they're using statistics that were flat-out made up by a political branch of the KKK, when they talk about this topic.

So you'll have to google it yourself, if you're interested.

grayson

My assumption is based on the statistics that show that illegal aliens do not commit more crimes than American citizens. Go look them up, if you're interested.

It's incumbent of you to supply links to the statistics!!!

You mean count, not rate

yes, excuse me, i meant count, not rate. i take the rest of your post as meaning your family can't stand you.

A lower count is not a good thing

so you're ok with a higher death count? very humane of you.

It's incumbent of you to supply links to the statistics!!!

Not going to do it. Educate yourself on the topic, if you're interested.

so you're ok with a higher death count? very humane of you.

You're ok with taking tiny pieces of a quote out of context and completely failing to address any point rather than admitting that you're wrong? Very mature of you.

It is not a crime to be here without documentation

oh really? why then, does our government deport people without proper, valid documentation?

DaVinci: Here are the statistics you are asking for. http://immigration.lohudblogs.com/2009/06/24/fact-check-illegal-immigrants-and-crime/

No, I just recognize that you're trying to drag me into a debate over sources

Not at all. But I can understand the justified paranoia. I read alot of articles like the following, which basically proves statistics can say whatever you want them to say depending upon the premise you want to support:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700029391/Crime-rates-of-undocumented-immigrants-spark-debate-between-lawmakers-police-chief.html

I'm actually totally curious why people take the stances that they do. I don't see your opinion as a "lesser good" I just find it illogical. To me.

Putting aside the fact that we disagree on contributing factors, or the importance thereof, you mentioned solutions in a previous post. As it regards to murder rate.

In my opinion the optimal solution can't happen as those who would murder either have no fear of the repercussions, no value for life, no self-restraint, or an exaggerated sense of self-importance over all else. Over simplified, perhaps, but what would you propose as a solution? One that would start working right now?

You're ok with taking tiny pieces of a quote out of context and completely failing to address any point rather than admitting that you're wrong?

look at this website.

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims_2.html

it is full of victims of illegal immigrants. it's pretty @!$%#ing simple. if there were no illegal immigrants in this nation, these people would be alive today.

how does it make you feel to know that your argument supports their deaths? and don't give me that "emotional appeal" bull@!$%#. these are real people with real families.

here's another website,

http://www.ojjpac.org/memorial.asp

how does it feel to trivialize the lives of these people? as long as illegals are free to roam as the please, your'e happy. got it.

Not at all. But I can understand the justified paranoia. I read alot of articles like the following, which basically proves statistics can say whatever you want them to say depending upon the premise you want to support:

And this is why talking about sources and statistics regarding this issue makes me so disgusted with the Republican party (not saying that you're one. Republicans brought FAIR to congress, is my reference). From the very source that is quoted in the "81% of homicides from Hispanics," here is the actual information: "According to the Bureau of Criminal Identification statistics for 2008 in Salt Lake City, there were 18 arrests for various types of homicide. Of those, nine arrests were of suspects described as Hispanic, two were non-Hispanic and seven were of an unknown ethnicity."

Now, that means that 9 out of 11, of the 18 murderers described, were described as being Hispanic. And that's the kind of thing that the statistics are commonly based on. Looking at the demographics for Salt Late City, approximately 40% of the population is Hispanic or latino. Now, assuming that every single described murderer was correctly identified as Hispanic, that means that the number of murderers that are Hispanic was twice as many as their representation in the population. Considering Salt Lake Cities' population size, you've got a 30% margin of error with a sample size of 11. Which means that, statistically, the representation is within the margin of error.

And, by the way, the article you linked had nothing to do with illegal aliens--It was about Hispanics!

In my opinion the optimal solution can't happen as those who would murder either have no fear of the repercussions, no value for life, no self-restraint, or an exaggerated sense of self-importance over all else. Over simplified, perhaps, but what would you propose as a solution? One that would start working right now?

What solution do I think we could work on? Well, not conflating it with immigration policy would be a good place to start.

it is full of victims of illegal immigrants. it's pretty @!$%#ing simple. if there were no illegal immigrants in this nation, these people would be alive today.

And if every rapist's mother had hugged him more often, there wouldn't be so many rape victims. Want to start a campaign against mothers who don't hug their children enough, or do you want to stop pretending that the issues are connected?

how does it make you feel to know that your argument supports their deaths? and don't give me that "emotional appeal" bull@!$%#. these are real people with real families.

Did you actually just suggest that, if your appeal is emotional, it shouldn't be regarded as an emotional appeal?

Honestly?

You're starting to look pretty silly.

Now, that means that 9 out of 11, of the 18 murderers described, were described as being Hispanic. And that's the kind of thing that the statistics are commonly based on. Looking at the demographics for Salt Late City, approximately 40% of the population is Hispanic or latino. Now, assuming that every single described murderer was correctly identified as Hispanic, that means that the number of murderers that are Hispanic was twice as many as their representation in the population. Considering Salt Lake Cities' population size, you've got a 30% margin of error with a sample size of 11. Which means that, statistically, the representation is within the margin of error.

Doh. I typed that wrong. Basically, it looks like this:

Murders decsribed as Hispanic in 2008: 50%
Population that is Hispanic or Latino: 40%
Margin of Error (for ethnic representation being equally distributed amongst the sample size): 30%

The 81% is a lie by omission of the other 9 murderers that were not described by ethnicity.

Statistically, the percentage of the population that is Hispanic is equal to the percentage of the murderers that are described as Hispanic. That is the only conclusion that can be drawn from those numbers without flat-out lying.

And if every rapist's mother had hugged him more often, there wouldn't be so many rape victims.

here's the point you're missing. if that rapist is an American citizen, he has every right to be in this nation. that doesn't make rape ok. the fact remains, as an American citizen, he has a right to be in this country. the people in the two links i gave were killed by people who have no right to be here.

you have no common sense whatsoever. this lack of common sense makes you look like a cold, calloused person who holds illegals in higher regard than his/her fellow Americans.

Actually I was referring to an earlier comment when you typed:

if you are not talking about ways in which to decrease the murder rate, you are not offering any solutions.

Solutions to reduce the murder rate.

In regards to the Deseret News article, I see your point. It still remains that these people see what their belief system leads them to see and more so agrees with them. I still disagree that illegal immigration is irrelevant, simply by matter of statistics. If we all assign importance only to the laws that we agree with, it's a shade of anarchy with room to bloom.

Distractions exist at the moment, however, but I'd like to continue the conversation at some point. Interesting stuff.

here's the point you're missing. if that rapist is an American citizen, he has every right to be in this nation. that doesn't make rape ok. the fact remains, as an American citizen, he has a right to be in this country. the people in the two links i gave were killed by people who have no right to be here.

So, as long as it's committed by an American, then you're interested in solving the problems of crime rates. But goodness forbid that we should include someone in that discussion if they're a Mexican!

Sorry that I couldn't help you to overcome your hatred of the big, bad people "other ones." I'm sorry that you live in a world so full of "us vs them" and other monsters, that exist only in your mind.

Think of it this way: If you deport the all illegal aliens, and the murder rates in each country stays the same, you'll be putting more people in Mexico and fewer in the USA. Mexico has a higher murder rate.

Your solution will actually cause a rise in the number of murders. But that's ok with you if it's just some Mexicans, right?

you have no common sense whatsoever. this lack of common sense makes you look like a cold, calloused person who holds illegals in higher regard than his/her fellow Americans.

Actually, it makes me look like a person more interested in fixing problems than trying to figure out who I should hate and blame for them.

Independent: Explain exactly how we round up between 11 and 20 million human beings and ship them back across the border? You insist on this connection between the presence of millions of undocumented aliens and the crimes committed by several hundred and yet you fail to recognize the utter stupidity of suggesting that somehow this nation could have prevented these tens of millions from coming here. It cannot be done. Period. Your logic would apply equally to any particular groups of people who, statistically, commit more crimes than the rest of society. African Americans have a higher crime rate. So, if we just lock them all up now, then no one will ever be the victim of crime by an african american, right? This stupid statement is just as logical as your claim that because some aliens here without our permission commit crimes, all must be hunted down as if they were criminals and deported. You make absolutely no sense.

But goodness forbid that we should include someone in that discussion if they're a Mexican!

why did you mention "mexican? is this the beginning of the typical "as a last resort, play the race card"? i only mentioned illegals. you cannot refute the fact that if there were no illegals, there would be no victims of crimes by illegals. oh, but you don't care about the number of victims, as you stated in a previous post. the more victims the merrier?

Think of it this way: If you deport the all illegal aliens, and the murder rates in each country stays the same,

yet the NUMBER of murders in America would go down. oh, that's right, you don't care about the number of victims.

Your solution will actually cause a rise in the number of murders. But that's ok with you if it's just some Mexicans, right?

cut the race baiting bull@!$%#. you're the only one to mention ethnicity. my solution may not drop the RATE, but it would certainly cut the NUMBER of victims in the US, and frankly, the US is my main concern.let other nations fix their own problems, we have enough of our own.

Actually, it makes me look like a person more interested in fixing problems

you think you or anybody else can "fix" murderers? you think you or anybody else can "fix" drunk driving? a good starting point would be to rid oursleves of people that do not belong here. that would lower the NUMBERS of those crimes. oh, that's right, you could care less if there are more victims.

figure out who I should hate and blame for them.

i was wondering when you would start playing this card. it's typical of pro-illegal people. when you cannot win an argument based on merit, you start playing the race and hate card. fyi, i don't give a damn what color or nationality an llegal is, they do not belong here. they have no right to be here. there is a legal path to citizenship. for those that take that path, i welcome. playing the race and hate card, pathetic, utterly pathetic.

but it would certainly cut the NUMBER of victims in the US, and frankly, the US is my main concern.let other nations fix their own problems, we have enough of our own.

Yup--that's my point. Don't try to play silly little emotional appeals on me, when your solution causes the number of murders to go up, and does nothing to decrease the murder rate here. The only thing your "solution" would accomplish, even it were possible to implement, would be an increase in the number of people that get murdered each year.

That's it--that's all that it would do. I also notice you don't seem to care that, proportionately, there are also plenty of illegal aliens that get killed by Americans.

cut the race baiting bull@!$%#. you're the only one to mention ethnicity

Mexican is neither an ethnicity, nor a race. And I'm not race-bating: I'm pointing out that you think that the lives of one group of people are worth more than the lives of another, because you believe yourself to be part of the first group, and not part of the second.

If you conclude that I am therefore accusing you of being bigoted against that other group... well... yes I am, actually.

i was wondering when you would start playing this card. it's typical of pro-illegal people. when you cannot win an argument based on merit, you start playing the race and hate card.

Let's see:

• I pointed out that your solution has no effect on the proportionate number of people in this country that will be murdered, every year.
• I pointed out that your solution increases the total number of murders committed, every year.

I'm not sure where it is you think that we're still having an argument. You lost a long time ago.

I pointed out that your solution has no effect on the proportionate number of people in this country that will be murdered, every year.

let's see, if we remove people from our society that do not belong here, some that commit murders, don't you think the number of people murdered would go down? it only makes sense. it's not my fault you haven't the sense to see this.

I pointed out that your solution increases the total number of murders committed, every year.

how in the hell can you possibly think this is true? let's see, we remove millions of people that are here illegally, in that group removed, some are murderers. and you think the NUMBER of murders will go up? lmfao.

I'm not sure where it is you think that we're still having an argument. You lost a long time ago.

then why do you keep arguing? this makes as much sense as the rest of your posts. i lost a long time ago, yet you keep arguing to convince me of your pointless drivel. lol, ok

it wasn't me that played the race card, or attempted to race bait. it wasn't me that played the hate card. that was you, buddy. not me. and you think you won? how's the weather on your planet? lol.

thanks for the laughs.

And before you accuse my accusation of bigotry of being unfair, let's consider a few facts:

The illegal alien population, at between 10 and 20 million, suffers roughly the same murder rate, in the USA, as does the legal citizen/alien population, within the USA.

The majority of those illegal aliens are from Mexico.

Mexico has a higher murder rate.

Deporting that population will increase the victim-of-murder rate within that population.

Now, you state "US is my main concern.let other nations fix their own problems," and that's callous, but fair enough. Except that population isn't in another nation--it's in this one. And, so, you are advocating a policy that will result in the increase of deaths by murder, amongst a group of people that is currently in the USA.

You cannot defend that claim by saying that they are another nation's problem. They are not--they are here, and, if they weren't our problem, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

So, quite clearly, you are discriminating against them not because they are in another nation whose problems are out of your control. You are discriminating against them because you don't like them. You're actually advocating that their exposure to crimes such as murder, should be increased by actions taken by this country.

So, yes, it's bigotry.

Oh, and, by the way? In response to:

you think you or anybody else can "fix" murderers? you think you or anybody else can "fix" drunk driving?

Yes, I do.

a good starting point would be to rid oursleves of people that do not belong here.

No, it wouldn't. We've been through this, already.

that would lower the NUMBERS of those crimes. oh, that's right, you could care less if there are more victims.

Again: do you advocate kicking out a significant portion of the population? That, also, would reduce the number of those crimes within this country. What would that solve?

I've asked you that question many times. I am well aware that the reason you have not responded to it is because you have no response. Your position is actually indefensible, and we both know it. But you could at least have either the integrity to admit it.

how in the hell can you possibly think this is true? let's see, we remove millions of people that are here illegally, in that group removed, some are murderers. and you think the NUMBER of murders will go up? lmfao.

Because the murder rates affect the people that get deported, too. And the murder rate is higher in Mexico.

Why do I think that?

Well... I passed high-school math, for one thing.

Except that population isn't in another nation--it's in this one. And, so, you are advocating a policy that will result in the increase of deaths by murder, amongst a group of people that is currently in the USA.

and that's the entire point. these people do not belong here, eliminate them from our society, the number of murders drops in America.

You are discriminating against them because you don't like them.

So, yes, it's bigotry

i don't discriminate. i dislike criminals of all color, all nationalities. i do not, as you suggest, dislike because of nationality or ethnicity. playing the hate card again. you're desperation is showing.

do you advocate kicking out a significant portion of the population?

i sure as hell do. they disregard our laws. they disrespect our nation. they disrespect the legal immigrants who went about it the correct way.

That, also, would reduce the number of those crimes within this country. What would that solve?

hint, the answer is in your first sentence. REDUCE THE NUMBER OF CRIMES IN THIS COUNTRY. and you have to ask what that would solve? silly me, i forgot, you could care less if the number of murder victims were 100 or 1000. me, i'll take 100 victims over 1000 anyday.

Because the murder rates affect the people that get deported, too. And the murder rate is higher in Mexico.

it's a shame anyone gets murdered, anywhere. i wish it were not a reality, but it is. mexico is not my concern. uh oh, i supose that makes me a bigoted, racist, hater? go ahead, play the race card, it doesn't work.

the US and my fellow citizens of all races and nationalites are my concern. we have our own problems. let mexico fix their problems. why do you make their problems ours? we have to our problems to worry about.

mexico is not my concern.

They're not in Mexico.

i dislike criminals of all color, all nationalities.

So people that drive over the speed limit? (Yes--we're back to this, until you recognize that not even you believe the things that you're saying).

i sure as hell do. they disregard our laws. they disrespect our nation. they disrespect the legal immigrants who went about it the correct way.

So we should kick out anyone who commits a crime? Or we should just start kicking people out randomly? You know, if you just declare yourself a sovereign nation, the number of crimes in your country would drop pretty dramatically.

Or does the fact that kicking people out doesn't solve anything... you know... actually enter into your brain at any point?

sigh, you just don't get it, grayson.

They're not in Mexico.

but if i had my way, they would be. to which you respond the murder rate would be higher because the murder rate is higher in mexico. while the NUMBER of murers of my fellow Americans would drop.

So people that drive over the speed limit?

you really need to find a new analogy. this one doesn't work. you cannot compare the damage done by illegal immigration to speeding.

So we should kick out anyone who commits a crime? Or we should just start kicking people out randomly?

only if they are here illegally. what do you not understand about ILLEGAL?

Or does the fact that kicking people out doesn't solve anything

the thing it does solve is it drops the number of victims in this nation. what is so hard to understand about that?

i need to go now. it's clear we'll never agree. you'll never convince me because your logic is faulty. i'll never convince you because, well, because you wouldn't recognize logic if it hit you in the face. however, it's been fun going back and forth. take care. i'm sure we'll see each other again on the vine.

sigh, you just don't get it, grayson.

I really, and that's unfortunate. Enjoy.

you cannot compare the damage done by illegal immigration to speeding.

You're right--the number of people killed in car accidents each year dramatically exceeds any harm caused by illegal aliens.

the thing it does solve is it drops the number of victims in this nation.

The part where it doesn't create fewer victims--it just ships them off to somewhere else. Pretending that you don't recognize this is starting to resemble the situation where the five year-old screams "but mommy! it looks clean!" after shoving all the crap in his room under his bed, while throwing a tantrum while his mother explains to him "you didn't clean anything up--you just hid it."

By the way, you're the five year-old, and I'm the exasperated mother, in case you're wondering.

And, with that, mommy needs a drinky-poo.

just one more side note before i go.

And, with that, mommy needs a drinky-poo.

lol. that explains it. haven't you had enough already tonite?